Track Curbing with a Pacing System Inside -- Is This Serious?

Yes it's serious, we also have it here in Holland

TexasCoach wrote:

Came across my news feed, is this serious?

https://twitter.com/The_LED_Rabbit/status/1022936108110438401

Why not? Could be a useful tool.

yes, this is real. I had something to do with it - got to run with it during the experimental phase.

There is also one that goes on the bottom of a swimming pool - the swimmers that have tried it in the Kansas City area loved it.

I found when running with it - there are 3 ways to use it:

1) you follow the light - let it set the pace (which you or a coach has pre programmed)

2) You begin ahead of the light - this lets you set the pace...and if you slow down during the workout, the light will catch you reminding you to speed up (this is how I like to use it) since I like to "feel the pace" for myself. This lets me run what I think is a 70 sec 400 for instance...if I start 2 seconds ahead of light and get caught, I speed up.

3) You chase the light - let it have a head start. Most of us are wired to chase...so this can be fun - also good for relay work...by teaching you to chase, but also not go out too fast.

The high schoolers who we using it - actually tried to race the rabbit - which I later thought is another way to use it.

Another idea for coaches who want to simulate race conditions - it to set the rabbit to speed up or slow down during a mile repeat for example to simulate how a real race might go. (out in 70, then speed up to 65, then back off again to whatever 70 and finish faster.)

Several big school in the US have already had one installed: I believe Northwestern in Lousiana is the first to install one on their outdoor track in June.

There have been mechanical versions of this for a long time. They haven't had much adoption because they aren't that useful considering the cost. Maybe if this is cheaper than the mechanical version, it will get better adoption?

This is also only useful for training, mechanical pacing is definitely not allowed in competition under the IAAF rules. I don't know about NCAA or NHFS rules.

As a side note, this is used with dog races for obvious reasons, they need some sort of motivation to ensure every dog in the race is really trying.

I went to LED Rabbit's website and they claim they have a patent. I haven't been able to find their patent, but if it covers using LEDs as a rabbiting device, I suspect it isn't enforceable, it would fall under the "obvious" clause, since it is too obvious of a change from a mechanical rabbit (in use since the 1920s in dog races and occasionally with human track athletes in training) to an LED rabbit.

Also, this patent from 1976 for a light bulb pacing device would probably preempt it too. Simply changing the type of light to an LED isn't patentable. Changing an existing patent from one type of race to another is not patentable either:

https://patents.google.com/patent/US4070016

It would also be difficult to prove it is different than the LED projections where people race people in the 40yard dash at football games, so that probably would preempt the patent. Here is a link to that:

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000787574/printable/nfl-draft-experience-presented-by-dannon-oikos-triple-zero-activities-and-attractions

I've been in this position before at a tech company, where the US patent office granted me a patent, and it became obvious later it wasn't enforceable. They may have a patent, but I doubt it is meaningful to prevent competition. It is nice as an advertising bullet point, though and may scare some people away from trying to compete with you, since if they sued you, you would need to spend the money on your defense.

For fun, here are some other pacing devices:

http://running.competitor.com/2016/04/video/puma-introduces-raceable-tech-with-the-beatbot_149486

This horse one is pretty crazy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iHf_exw_5bw

I'm curious, is this the same company, or a different group?

https://www.viget.com/work/trackpacer/

Update to my above post, TrackPacer does appear to be a different company, which also claims to have a patent. I can't find either company's patent details, do I can't really say without reading the patent, but unless the patented some specific technological solution within the system, the overall concept doesn't seem to be patentable, IMO, just way too many similar systems already out there.

Sdfsdfsdfsdfsdfsdf wrote:

Update to my above post, TrackPacer does appear to be a different company, which also claims to have a patent. I can't find either company's patent details, do I can't really say without reading the patent, but unless the patented some specific technological solution within the system, the overall concept doesn't seem to be patentable, IMO, just way too many similar systems already out there.

Hey, I was informed about this post and can tell you TrackPacer isn't associated with The LED Rabbit. They have actually been notified about the violation and have yet to respond. My background is I do marketing and sales for the Rabbit. As for the patent situation, we are partnered with the one person who solely has patents on "light reference to help pace athletes" You can find a PDF explaining it at the bottom of News Feed, patent number is US9095762B2.

Here is TrackPacer's patent application. I think the only thing defensible in there is the feedback to the system, where the system monitors the actual position of the athlete and gives feedback for how far ahead or behind pace the athlete is.

https://patents.justia.com/patent/20160193515

Somebody could get around that by changing the way the athlete is monitored. For example, machine vision as the feedback technology would not be covered by this patent, it clearly calls out the use of an RFID chip on the athlete. If somebody wants to steal that idea and patent it, go for it, I couldn't find anything that would block that from being patentable.

But the basic idea of an LED strip that you follow is clearly not enforceable.

If they want something they can enforce, they could also patent a system that responds dynamically, ie, slows down with you but tries to lead you back onto pace. Kind of like the old "music in a box" system from the 90s that altered the tempo of backing tracks as you play along with them and would attempt to bring you back onto the correct tempo. At least, I couldn't find anything that would already cover that idea.

Again, though, the actual utility of these devices is dubious. if you have a track that allows you to install a $50k device, you can probably just ride your bike along with your athletes. And lets be honest, calling out splits really isn't lacking.

This is old news. These things were around in the late 60's/70"s and were used on the indoor racing circuit. Several WR attempts used them and added an element of excitement when marketing the meets.

Old Tech wrote:

This is old news. These things were around in the late 60's/70"s and were used on the indoor racing circuit. Several WR attempts used them and added an element of excitement when marketing the meets.

So why are teams interested in The LED Rabbit but not this tech from the 60/70's? You know of a video we can watch to see these, I'm interested in it.

Some of you oldtimers help us out. I heard the University of Tennessee had some sort of pacing apparatus (lights maybe?) years ago (70’s?).

Always thought it was a cool idea, but never had in confirmed.

Haha.

GhostofConnieSmith wrote:

Some of you oldtimers help us out. I heard the University of Tennessee had some sort of pacing apparatus (lights maybe?) years ago (70’s?).

Always thought it was a cool idea, but never had in confirmed.

MikeO'Hara and a bunch of athletes fought the AAU ban on payments to athletes with The International Track Association meets in MSG NY and elsewhere in '72 > 76 they had pacer lights on the track.

I bet you can find some clips from those meets

I think Pocatello Idaho was the first meet Ryun versus Kip Keno in the mile Larry James Lee Evans at 500 yards

the camera that runs along the inside of the finish straight at OG & Diamond League meets is basically that technology

Good luck with those proceedings. My professional opinion is that if you take them to court, youll end up losing and paying their legal fees.

Having a patent doesnt mean it is something you can defend. The patent office is in the business of recording patents, not checking if they are valid. They do an extremely quick check to make sure they arent identical to an existing patent, nothing more.

How you were unaware of another company that I found on the first page of google when you apoarently work for them suggests you guys might be new to these topics.

It will be interesting to see if these systems catch on now that two companies seem to be making a serious attempt.

With the other companies feedback system, maybe its time for serious data analysis to enter distance training.

Sdfsdfsdfsdfsdfsdf wrote:

How you were unaware of another company that I found on the first page of google when you apoarently work for them suggests you guys might be new to these topics.

We have been aware of TrackPacer for over a year now. I was talking about aware of this post. Our partner contacted them once we discovered them. Instead of spending time worried about if they're going to have to pay up or not, I've been doing marketing and sales to actually make something out of this. As of right now, we're marathons ahead of TrackPacer

That seems great for training.

It would be nice to have one for racing that the athletes cannot seem but will show up on TV to know where the runners are in relation to nay records.

Had this idea a very long time ago and thought about trying to develop it but didn't. O well.

Instead of a rabbit being chased by a dog, they should take away all the runners cell phones and the winner gets his back at the finish. The others are held for one hour. That would make everybody run much harder.