Third Kenyan runner in 10 days fails doping test

pop_pop!_v2.2.1 wrote:

Renato Canova wrote:

in spite they NEVER were positive in any doping control (and everybody of them had not less than 10 OOC controls every year, after 2010) ?

This means nothing. We know at this point a sports federation can bury positives at will for the right price. Defeating the bio-passport is as simple as doing EPO at altitude. The vast majority of drugs tests are easily defeated urinalysis.

So, some Kenyans that make podiums are doping.

+1

Renato Canova wrote:

I can confirm the athletes I coach don't use any supplement and any vitamin. Only the marathon runners use specific maltodextrine when go for fast long run in order to have more energetic support.

So, If I had blood work from one of your current, well known athletes (and you are directly the source) and right on the page it said that he was taking a multi-vitamin, this would be in direct contrast to your assertion here, correct?

Renato Canova wrote:

I never published Manangoi's training, because I don't know how he trains. I'm not his coach, and he's not in Iten, where I can have continuous contacts with the coaches of their athletes.

So, I don't know who is the subject of your mistake.

I can confirm the athletes I coach don't use any supplement and any vitamin. Only the marathon runners use specific maltodextrine when go for fast long run in order to have more energetic support.

Sure I meant Kwemoi my mistake (I have been ill all week), they're all the same to me.

If you check the archives you have stated on here you regularly monitor your athletes trace minerals levels and adjust them if they are low. You wrote it not me.

Renato Canova wrote:

Your question is a nonsense.

How do we know ALL the athletes faster than the doped athletes are doped too, in spite they NEVER were positive in any doping control (and everybody of them had not less than 10 OOC controls every year, after 2010) ?

How do we know you are honest and not a thief ?

No Kenyan has had 10 OOC tests p.a. since that's nonsense, who? Examples please? There was no facilities to do such a thing. Testing athletes in a hotel in Brussels or Zurich the night before they race in a Diamond League is a random OOC test. Only blood testing minimizes epo usage.

Subway Surfers wrote:

Renato Canova wrote:

I can confirm the athletes I coach don't use any supplement and any vitamin. Only the marathon runners use specific maltodextrine when go for fast long run in order to have more energetic support.

Sure I meant Kwemoi my mistake (I have been ill all week), they're all the same to me.

If you check the archives you have stated on here you regularly monitor your athletes trace minerals levels and adjust them if they are low. You wrote it not me.

Here: "About training, I never went to some laboratory for controlling my athletes (except blood tests every 1-2 months, because it's very important to know what CAN HAPPEN IN THE CLOSE FUTURE, and from the blood tests you can have a lot of informations)."

Heck we were discussing this exactly one year ago

Subway, if I wrote :

"About training, I never went to some laboratory for controlling my athletes (except blood tests every 1-2 months, because it's very important to know what CAN HAPPEN IN THE CLOSE FUTURE, and from the blood tests you can have a lot of informations)."

do you think I wrote I give them supplements when they have low values ?

Knowing what can happen in the close future means to change training, and sometimes diet.

Don't forget that lactic training can lower the level of the Lactic Threshold, reducing levels of Iron. When we see a LOW level of Ferritin, we can suppose the athlete is going in direction of a loss of shape, because has little quantity of Iron in the store, and this means a reduced ability to take Oxygen from the air (something coming BEFORE the ability to transport Oxygen : it's useless to use a big lorry if we don't have material enough for filling the boot).

So, in this case, which is the solution ? To go for a period of about one week for easy training, using only moderate speed in long run and very short sprints for mechanical reasons, in order to HELP the body to rebuild the original level without using what already the athletes have (training is to fill the tank, competition has to use all the fuel in the tank), followed by a period of 2 weeks where the aerobic training can grow as intensity, WITHOUT DOING ANY LACTIC WORKOUT OF HIGH INTENSITY. We can also change the diet, eating more meat (not cooked) for increasing the level of "ferro-eme" (the best quality of Iron), introducing also some sea-food containing more Iron.

In case of lack of minerals, we can find all we need eating different types of vegetables. Sometimes the athletes, step by step, go to eat less vegetables or always their preferred vegetable, and don't have enough support of some specific mineral. When we see this situation in a blood investigation, we explain the athlete he has to vary his diet, assuming vegetables containing specific minerals (not all the vegetables have the same minerals in the same quantity) and specific vitamins.

In the past, in Italy, I had experiences with athletes followed by doctors giving them like routine injections of Iron without controlling if they needed or not, and this behavior, instead to create a right storage of Iron for the body, created an inhibition to use the Iron. I remember an athlete (3'39" in 1500m and 2:13 in marathon few years later) who always felt his legs very heavy, describing the situation like "My legs are not able to breath". This athlete had level of ferritin higher than 1200, when an optimal level is about 70. When I asked how was possible, he told me "My doctor gives me injection of Iron to do, every month, for 10 days", also when he didn't need.

When the glass is already full, we have to cancel the idea that supplements can give advantages. With too much Iron in the body, the body is no longer able to work. With too much sugar, the crisis is HYPOGLICEMIC (not Hyper...) because our body refuses to produce insulin, and doesn't use the glycogen in the body.

So, for answering your question, it's important to know how a person (not only an athlete) is in order to find solutions that we have WITHOUT looking at any medicine.

Different is the case of somebody that is heavily sick. In this case, the doctor is the one can give the cure. But, in this case, that person is not an athlete, but a SICK PERSON, and the athlete, for definition, start to be athlete only when is totally fit.

Always I say that SICK or INJURED athletes don't exist. Sick or injured persons exist, and, if these persons are athletes, ALL THEIR FOCUS MUST BE IN COMING BACK FULLY FIT. Only after this, they can think again to be athletes and about their training.

And, Subway, another thing : you say that all the Kenyans are the same for you : Manangoi (world champion) the same as Kwemoi (WR holder in altitude).

This is one of the reasons because many of you think doping is widely diffused among the top runners, transferring the situation of one in the situation of other 30.

I think you need to start to think of INDIVIDUALS, who in every part of the world are different one from another, physically, mentally, for education, ambience, behavior.

This happens with Kenyans and with Americans, with Europeans and with Asian people.

I'm, and I always will be in the future, against every kind of generalization, exactly the opposite of LR posters demonstrate to do when put everybody (ALL KENYANS, ALL TOP RUNNERS, ALL SPORTSMEN) in the same pot. And the pot is the one of doped, something NOT ACCECTABLE without knowing the single cases.

El K, why would we expect Kenyan wr holders would test positive when Rudisha, Daniel Komen, Dennis Kimetto, and Beatrice Chepkoech are the only Kenyan wr holders? Komen retired a long time ago, Rudisha has not competed this year and Kimetto has been uncompetitive for years. Chepkoech just got her wr, but the previous record holder has been busted, and she was Kenyan before plastic citizenship. We do have Rita Jeptoo, Jemima Sumgong, Asbel Kiprop, Boniface Kipresa, Matthew Kisorio, and Ruth Jebet as positives, and they are very high profile.

zxcvxcv wrote:

El K, why would we expect Kenyan wr holders would test positive when Rudisha, Daniel Komen, Dennis Kimetto, and Beatrice Chepkoech are the only Kenyan wr holders? Komen retired a long time ago, Rudisha has not competed this year and Kimetto has been uncompetitive for years. Chepkoech just got her wr, but the previous record holder has been busted, and she was Kenyan before plastic citizenship. We do have Rita Jeptoo, Jemima Sumgong, Asbel Kiprop, Boniface Kipresa, Matthew Kisorio, and Ruth Jebet as positives, and they are very high profile.

Rudisha is the only one I believe to be clean.

Sand Dunes wrote:

zxcvxcv wrote:

El K, why would we expect Kenyan wr holders would test positive when Rudisha, Daniel Komen, Dennis Kimetto, and Beatrice Chepkoech are the only Kenyan wr holders? Komen retired a long time ago, Rudisha has not competed this year and Kimetto has been uncompetitive for years. Chepkoech just got her wr, but the previous record holder has been busted, and she was Kenyan before plastic citizenship. We do have Rita Jeptoo, Jemima Sumgong, Asbel Kiprop, Boniface Kipresa, Matthew Kisorio, and Ruth Jebet as positives, and they are very high profile.

Rudisha is the only one I believe to be clean.

Because he's media friendly, likeable and smiles a lot? The rest are too shy, don't try to engage, stick to themselves, ergo doped to the gills, correct? Classic American logic cultivated under a lifetime of simplistic Hollywood scripts.

I think Rudisha is clean, by the way, as are the vast majority of Kenyan athletes across all tiers. Insufficient testing was the one chink detractors could point at and that's been addressed. No other African country has done the same. It's evident that if you dope in Kenya today, you're likely to get caught. Can we say the same about the U.S.? I don't know.

zxcvxcv wrote:

El K, why would we expect Kenyan wr holders would test positive when Rudisha, Daniel Komen, Dennis Kimetto, and Beatrice Chepkoech are the only Kenyan wr holders? Komen retired a long time ago, Rudisha has not competed this year and Kimetto has been uncompetitive for years. Chepkoech just got her wr, but the previous record holder has been busted, and she was Kenyan before plastic citizenship. We do have Rita Jeptoo, Jemima Sumgong, Asbel Kiprop, Boniface Kipresa, Matthew Kisorio, and Ruth Jebet as positives, and they are very high profile.

Seriously dude. I'll grant you Jeptoo, Sumgong and, especially, Kiprop, but sprinter Boniface Mweresa and road runner Matthew Kisorio are only high profile to you because they failed dope tests. Same as Kalalei. No one's checking for them on Kenyan streets.

And by your reckoning, Beatrice Chepkoech is dirty because Ruth Jebet failed a test. Am I allowed to use that logic for American athletes? Why are you folks so incapable of seeing Kenyans as individuals?

Running is a holy foundry of immeasurable gifts. We have a problem in our age that goes beyond doping. A messenger came from among you all to teach you of this holy foundry and what more needs to be done than is being done. This ye did not know. You followed what your fathers were doing.

None have spoken comparable words and teachings. The wisdom and mercy was poured out onto these boards from time to time, many of these years.

The guardians of running are charged with a sacred task and so have responsibilities and obligations unto righteousness. But their deeds thus far have been of Frustrationing of the True Great Projects.

It were best that ye all heeded the words of the messenger.

Did ye think this messenger only spoke of himself?

Have you all sold the Sacred signs for a Miserable Price?

Could any on the planet, in any combination,

The most accomplished coaches,

The fastest runners,

The most popular runners,

The hordes of fans,

The mobs of consensus,

Contend against this,

These greater truths?

The messenger came in the name of more than himself.

The message was sealed in integrities that ye all, heretofore, have not mustered.

Grazie mille, Allenatore. This has been my singular goal since I started posting on this site. To get them to see Kenyan runners as complete human beings with varying characters rather than just faceless drones. But it's all in vain, I'm afraid. I've never seen a Letsrun poster change their mind about any topic or thing. Stuborn, intructable lot.

Sand Dunes wrote:

zxcvxcv wrote:

El K, why would we expect Kenyan wr holders would test positive when Rudisha, Daniel Komen, Dennis Kimetto, and Beatrice Chepkoech are the only Kenyan wr holders? Komen retired a long time ago, Rudisha has not competed this year and Kimetto has been uncompetitive for years. Chepkoech just got her wr, but the previous record holder has been busted, and she was Kenyan before plastic citizenship. We do have Rita Jeptoo, Jemima Sumgong, Asbel Kiprop, Boniface Kipresa, Matthew Kisorio, and Ruth Jebet as positives, and they are very high profile.

Rudisha is the only one I believe to be clean.

Why do you say that? (I hear this from time to time on LRC). FYI, London wasn't considered to be anything close to clean.

What's The Deal? wrote:

Sand Dunes wrote:

Rudisha is the only one I believe to be clean.

Why do you say that? (I hear this from time to time on LRC). FYI, London wasn't considered to be anything close to clean.

I don't know, something about him seem/feels clean. If I had to put money on out of all the current record holders which ones are clean I would put money on Rudisha.

Just my 0.02

Sand Dunes wrote:

What's The Deal? wrote:

Why do you say that? (I hear this from time to time on LRC). FYI, London wasn't considered to be anything close to clean.

I don't know, something about him seem/feels clean. If I had to put money on out of all the current record holders which ones are clean I would put money on Rudisha.

Just my 0.02

Is it his handsome, dashing, debonaire looks perhaps? I've had friends tell me that he looks to cool to be a doper. ?

Check this out!

Major doping ring identified that is based out of Arizona that distributes PEDs, notably "IGF-1-LR3" & the peptides, globally to professional athletes in varoius sports (T&F, baseball, football, soccer, etc.). Sobering article for those drinking the Kool-Aid that all is well & good (Hmmm...I think aduck was onto something here with the speed peptide ?).

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/26/sports/doping-thomas-mann-peptides.html?rref=collection%2Ftimestopic%2FErythropoietin&action=click&contentCollection=timestopics&region=stream&module=stream_unit&version=latest&contentPlacement=28&pgtype=collection

You cannot blame my posts for these strained or wrong or opposite interpretations. For example, my performance analysis pretty much showed with historical evidence that most EPO users, assuming there are many, did not even possess 1990 WR potential. From this analysis, and since then, I've been repeatedly accused of assuming precisely the opposite of this obvious and unambiguous conclusion: "Once again, you seem to have this misconception that all elites using EPO are potential WR holders." This was a wrong and opposite conclusion that was wrong the first time, and each time thereafter.

"casual obsever" is also not immune to wrong interpretations -- I recall his recent failure to understand what Renato meant by "steroids work". Perhaps this is a bad example, since "works" actually is highly ambiguous.

It's funny how selectively you decide to use the word "know" in "how do you know?", as if anyone here is speaking from a position of knowledge. There are many ideas in your list which are assumptions rather than things we "know". On the contrary, it would be naive of me to take for granted that these assumptions are like knowledge.

Since it keeps coming up so much recently, can someone define what "doping culture" is supposed to mean exactly? This looks like a very underdeveloped concept with the purpose of attaching a rather ambiguous label to a country, in order to relieve the burden of proof of showing individual doping. Even if a country like Morocco is shown to have a "doping culture", this is not enough to help us show that Moroccans like El Gurerrouj or Aouita doped, or needed to dope, to achieve their best times. Regarding "doping culture" and connection to performance at the top, we only need to look at Russia, with a much bigger "doping culture" than Morocco, and their corresponding lack of success at the top: 0 men and only about a dozen women. Or we look at Spain and its rich "doping culture", and their corresponding lack of ability to significantly separate their best performances, from the best performances of other Europeans, and Americans, or their 1990s predecessors.

True.

I am white and I can tell Kwemoi from Manangoi, from Kimetto, from both Wilson Kipketers, Bernard Barmasai, Paul Tergat, Wilson Kipsang, Kamworor, the Mutais, Conseslus Kipruto from Brimin Kipruto, Danny Wanjiru from Sammy Wanjiru, etc., etc., etc., and yet I train with people who follow athletics and to them it's always just another black. "Must have been a Kenyan or an Ethiopian. Another black dude."

I can't understand this.

And Subway come here talking like a know it all and then says something like that.

That's stupid and coevettian.