Old School Workouts (i.e., 20x400)

Everybody has done and has heard of 20x400. There are literally over 100 threads on this site with 20x400 in the title.

I was reading a book of a first day college practice. Sorry but it was either Jim Ryan or Dave Waddle. I read about both of them but it was likely Ryan. He talked about throwing up during and after the workout. The claim was 20 x 400. We use to do 16x400. Toughest workout was with Peter Maher at 8xmile on the track. About 11 of us started the workout only 7 finished with all under 5:00. Temp was in the 90's. Results; two weeks later we finished 1-2 at Manitoba Marathon.

Gravy wrote:

Everybody has done and has heard of 20x400. There are literally over 100 threads on this site with 20x400 in the title.

Old School here. Never did 20X400 but did do a lot of 10X400.

Aussie quarters

Mona fartlek

Hard 10-mile run with the lads

Hills

CoachB wrote:

Stuff like this used to be bread and butter. What are the pros and cons of doing 20x400 for a high school kid? The biggest number of 400s I've ever assigned is 15 (done at closer to 3200 pace) When appropriate, when is it not appropriate?

Accumulate volume at goal pace without the stress of doing it in larger chunks (i.e., 1000s)?

Biomechanical efficiency at goal pace?

Aerobic Development? (if rest is short enough?)

Discus

Never did 20x400 although I heard about it. But one coach had me do lots of 20x200 up to 50x200 at faster than 5k pace. And in winter the occasional 100x100.

Stuff like this used to be bread and butter. What are the pros and cons of doing 20x400 for a high school kid? The biggest number of 400s I've ever assigned is 15 (done at closer to 3200 pace) When appropriate, when is it not appropriate?

Accumulate volume at goal pace without the stress of doing it in larger chunks (i.e., 1000s)?

Biomechanical efficiency at goal pace?

Aerobic Development? (if rest is short enough?)

Discus

malmo wrote:

Never did 20x400 in my life and only heard of one person doing it ever. That's an anomaly, not bread and butter.

Bread and butter:

1) 10x400

2) 8-10 x 800

3) 5-6 x 1 mile

4) all sorts of ladders

It's pretty common. Maybe not for you.

You do 20x400 every time you go for a 5 mile run! As with all interval sessions the details are vital; pace & rest between hard efforts.

20x400 can be a fairly relaxed workout if done at, say, X Country pace even with a short recovery. 8x400 can be agony if done at 1500 pace with short recovery. The volume of a session is no indicator as to the toughness of that session!

20 x 400m sounds impressive because 1500m athletes often do (6 to10) x 400m at 1500m race pace. Doing 20 x 400m at 5000m race pace is easier than doing 6 x 1200m @ 5000m race pace.

malmo wrote:

Never did 20x400 in my life and only heard of one person doing it ever. That's an anomaly, not bread and butter.

Bread and butter:

1) 10x400

2) 8-10 x 800

3) 5-6 x 1 mile

4) all sorts of ladders

Strange you didnt know 20 x 400m has been a very common workout for many great runners threw history ?

In Kenya its also a common workout and some of them even run 25-30 x 400m.

20-25x400 @ 3k pace, 1:1 recovery is a pretty standard workout in a lot of college programs

We did 20 - 24 x 400 a fair amount. 5 - 6 sets of 4 x 400m reps with 100m jog between reps and 400m jog between sets. Most of the time we did ~5k pace.

Mh wrote:

20-25x400 @ 3k pace, 1:1 recovery is a pretty standard workout in a lot of college programs

20x400 is a great first third of an interval workout

My junior and senior year of XC incollege I remember doing 20x400 (on a grass loop) right over 5k pace (I think?) with 1 minute rest. We were trying to hit 75's I want to say. Most of our XC team was in the 25:00-26:00 min 8k range.

This is a staple of my own training progression. But as another poster said, it's important to control both the pace of the 400 and the length of the recovery interval. By running at current 5K pace (not goal pace), you train at an effort level presumably at or above 90% VO2 max, the level you need to hit in order to trigger the benefits targeted by this type of workout. By limiting recovery to 100 meters, you begin your next repetition at close to the same VO2 max level (since you stay at VO2 max for a very short period following each repetition). In this way, the first few reps serve to get you up to VO2 max, then the remainder keep you working at that level. You end up accumulating a lot of work at 90+ percent VO2 max. In fact, you get more work at this level of VO2 max than you would at a similar volume of 5K work split into 800s, 1200s, or 1600s, since those reps require a significantly longer recovery interval, which means you'll spend a significant portion of each rep getting back to the targeted level of VO2 max. Performed correctly, this is a tough workout, but by no means a killer workout.

The problem with this workout is that many runners try to run the 400s at mile or 3K pace (or at a goal 5K pace that's a lot faster than current 5K pace), which is simply too hard to sustain over 20 reps (and doesn't offer a lot more benefit than the work at 5K effort, anyway). The problem is also that many runners/coaches just drop this workout into a training program out of nowhere. Instead, you need to build to this workout, progressively increasing the amount of work at the targeted level of VO2 max from week to week. I personally spend 6-7 weeks building up before I get to 20 x 400.

Also, a longer recovery interval defeats the purpose, as a 400-meter rep after a long recovery will require most of the rep just to get back to the targeted level of VO2 max.

In any case, it's just another workout in what should be a large arsenal of workouts.

Fascinating post, thank you very much for that good info!

malmo wrote:

Never did 20x400 in my life and only heard of one person doing it ever. That's an anomaly, not bread and butter.

Bread and butter:

1) 10x400

2) 8-10 x 800

3) 5-6 x 1 mile

4) all sorts of ladders

Agreed. I did 20x400m once in my entire career during the off season for some unknown reason. I think I was broke and bored and didn't want to go home yet. Never did again.

...that malmo only heard of one person running this session. I remember a good training discussion from a few years back when somebody credited John Halvorsen as saying this type of high volume session was a core part of effective training in his experience. I’ve been coached to run 400s in many different ways, and 20-25 x 400 would be run at about 10k pace, but with only 100 m jog rest. Excellent session in my experience.

You are absolutely correct that the 20 x 400m should be run at present 5 k race pace. But I don`t agree with you when

you talk about how the recovery between the reps should be performed. I understand how you think with the too

short recovery of 100 m to faster build up close to maxVO2 for more of the reps, but the thing is that the heart and the cardiovascular system needs more rest to get optimal effect. What you and so many forget is that the recovery period

between the reps is MORE important than the effort for the heart to grow stronger and more effective. And further this

workout only help to raise or maintain the maxVO2 together with the other contributing factors. The main purpose with the 20 x 400m is to get the body used to the 5 k race pace and that way make the energy process at that pace more economical. Repetition of the workout from week to week makes biomechanics at the pace more effective . In fact the runner don`t need another maxVO2- pace workout , but just for some variation sometimes it can be e.g. 13- 15 x 600m , 8-10 x 800m or 7-8 x 1000m at same 5k race pace.