Sub 2h30 Fall Marathon

SoFlo Runs wrote:

M: 2-mile w/u, 4x1mile @ MP w/1min rest, 3min rest b/w set, 3x1mile w/1min rest, 3-mile c/d. 5:39, 5:41, 5:41,5:42, 3min rest, 5;40, 5:43, 5: 49. Total – 12 miles

T: am: 5 miles easy, pm: 2-mile w/u, 4x2mile @ MP w/2min rest, 2-mile c/d. 11:15, 11:25, 11:21, 11:25. Total: 17 miles

T: 2-mile w/u, 4x1mile @ MP w/1min rest, 4min rest into 7 miles easy, 4min rest into 3x1mile @ MP, 2-mile c/d. 5:37, 5:41, 5:44, 5:38, 7 miles @ 7:07 pace, 5:42, 5:37, 5:48. Total: 18 miles

T: am: 6 miles easy, pm: 2-mile w/u, 3miles w/3min rest, 2miles w/2min rest, 1mile w/1min rest, 3-mile c/d. 5:36, 5:32, 5:35 (~16:45) / 5:35, 5:43 (~11:19) / 5:30. Total – 17 miles

T: 2-mile w/u, 4x1mile @ MP w/1min rest, 4min rest into 8 miles easy, 4min rest into 3mile tempo, 2-mile c/d. 5:30, 5:24, 5:31, 5:30, 8 miles @ 6:58 pace, 5:29, 5:30, 5:28 (~16:29). Total – 19 miles

J, some of these workout look awfully familiar! You say you are running them at Marathon pace, but my guess from our prior exchanges is that they are probably closer to tempo effort than marathon effort, and that the times are a bit closer to marathon pace than they are tempo pace because of the weather. For most of these, I would expect you to be closer to high 5:25 to 5:30 pace instead of 5:35 to 5:40 pace. I would want to see a few workouts at the faster paces before giving my guess as to your sub 2:30 odds.

Those workouts are a little slower than what I am running, and I think if Vegas were to set odds on whether or not I would break 2:30, they would make me a moderate underdog.

The x factor for both of us is the weather. It is nearly impossible to put these efforts into context given that we are running in a swamp (my 15 day forecast has a low of 75 every day and a high of between 90 and 92 every day, with dew points that average in the low to mid 70s).

Start working those workouts at tempo pace man!

Well, I name-dropped you for the workout credit lol. I've been trying to rotate a 10K/5K-paced workout every week to keep the speed there.

As for the tempo effort vs. marathon pace, unfortunately, you're probably right. The last hard workout of:

T: 2-mile w/u, 4x1mile @ MP w/1min rest, 4min rest into 8 miles easy, 4min rest into 3mile tempo, 2-mile c/d. 5:30, 5:24, 5:31, 5:30, 8 miles @ 6:58 pace, 5:29, 5:30, 5:28 (~16:29). Total – 19 miles

is the best workout, in my opinion, so far in the training block and is an improvement from the first time I did it. Right now, I'm basing my tempo times as if I'm in 15:50-16:00 5K shape, but after this Saturday's 8K, I'll adjust the times accordingly. I'm really banking on the increased mileage and cooler weather up north in Oct. to get me under 2:30. It's been a shithole of a summer in SoFlo weather-wise, so anything sub 70 degrees will feel amazing. I'll try to target a good "tempo effort" next Tuesday.

SoFlo-

It’s hard to say without knowing the weather conditions for these workouts, but it looks like you are getting into shape quickly. I missed ADP by a narrow margin too, but am not in shape yet for Chicago and am going to race Philadelphia instead. Your 5k and 10k PRs are both more than a minute faster than mine, but our half marathon bests are within 15 seconds. I’m targeting sub 2:30, but it will take a lot of things coming together.

I guess it would be cool to see what you can do for a half before making predictions. If you’re in the Twin Cities area, don’t they have a good one in early September?

Good luck.

I’ll post some training here once I’m closer to goal fitness. Today was my first 20 miler with 10@6:57, 5@6:29, 5@5:55. Pretty hilly although the last 5 was flat. I’m bummed not to be able to throw down with this crew in Chicago.

Also folks- Maurten is coming out with gels. I’m a big fan of their Drink Mix 320, so I’m curious what the gel scene will be. Sounds like maybe exclusively through Fleet Feet in the US and available in the week or so.

What other ways do you guys mix up your long runs? I've been doing a progression each week (starting off at 7:30s and dropping down to 5:50s over 18-21). I have one more MP run this weekend (within a 20 miler).

I was thinking about doing some surges (2-3 minutes on/off) during the last half of the run; just running a "hard" effort. Any thoughts?

I'm also racing a half on 9/15 but haven't decided yet about the execution. It falls on the day of the last big long run, so I'll be doing 20-22 total.

One of the classic Daniels workouts will have 18-22 miles total with two separate bouts of 20 minutes or 4x1 mile at threshold effort. Something like 2E + 4x1T (1:00 jog) + 8E + 4x1T (1:00 jog) + 2E. You can get more creative if you want, but if you haven't done a workout like that before I would recommend using cruise intervals instead of longer continuous tempos. If you go out too hot you'll still be able to recover.

I agree with Andy here. I wouldn't try that for the first time late in a training cycle though. Daniels is very thoughtful as to how he builds into those workouts. For example, one of his first long run tempo combos is a simple 2E, 5 x 1 mile at T, 8 easy. A little later in the cycle he adds the 4 x 1 mile, 5:00 recovery, 3 x 1 mile workout. You can see how those are nice precursors to the classic TLT that Andy is referring to. I just did a variant of that one on Monday, with the 4 x 1 mile being on the treadmill, then 8 easy (instead of the 10 I will do in cooler weather), then 15:00 at tempo pace, followed by 3-4 miles to get to 20.

@immunorunner

15 @ MP without feeling like redlining sounds like the definition of being 2:30 ready :P

wow, great stuff since I last posted here, will read carefully tomorrow to further comment.

for now i just want to say that I had a hell of a session today... not in the sense of "greatness"... but one that i finished with not much left.

i have done 3 x 5000m with 5 min jog between the reps

to add that i had done 4 easy miles in the morning plus easy 3 km before starting the 5000m reps. Total of close to 30 km today.

might be weird but i had never done a session like this - 3 x 5000m - so I had an idea not exactly precise of what to expect.

I was feeling quite tired as well - Sunday I have struggled once again to finish my long run (ran 20 miles under close to 30 degrees, the last 5 miles were more of a death march) and my legs were still not fully back. It was also quite warm today as well, perhaps 25/26 degrees which is doable but far from ideal.

my initial goal was to break 17:00 in all of them, which I knew it was ambitious. 17:00 by 5k is my Half-Marathon PR pace, and though I am very close if not in HM PR shape already, it certainly feels different keeping that pace when tired.

I knew all that, it was a warm day, also a bit windy, was feeling tired, and stupid enough, I ran the first 5000m in 16:43.

As a "punishement" for stupidity, i decided to finish the workout no matter what, and God it was painful.

I managed to finish the other two reps in 17:25 each but was very tired in the end. I actually did not jog the 5 min of the 2nd rep and instead drank water in a standing rest.

anyone with experience in 3 x 5000m / 3 x 3 miles workouts?

my feeling is that I am in 1h11:30 - 1h12:30 HM Shape and 2h32 - 2h34 Marathon at this point.

feels so hard to lower these 2-4 minutes! but still in the realms of possibility for Oct 21 in Amsterdam.

Good luck everyone and thanks for the great insights and info sharing.

Been lurking on this thread just to see what the workouts/training looks like for sub-2:30. Hoping to go sub-2:40 out of Chicago from Corral A.

SoFlo- The World Marathon Majors can be tough for serious runners because registration tends to open up and close almost a year before the race when you might not know what race you want to do and such. I would reach out to Chicago and ask them if you can start out of corral A even if you run for a charity and give them your race times. Sub-3:15 gets you a guaranteed entry (bypass the lottery) at Chicago but you have to register at the same time things open up. Corral A at Chicago is for people who have gone sub-1:25 for the half or sub-2:51 (m) or sub-3:05 (f). I remember things being quite easy when I ran just under 2:50 a few years back out of corral a. You start right with the elites and adc. People will be running 6:00/mile & faster out of corral a, plus the first few miles are fast so you could hop on the sub-2:30 train quite easily.

Are you tied to choosing a midwest race? Indy Monumental is a good substitute for Twin Cities since it's very flat. I believe they have elite standards that are actually pretty reasonable so you could get a comped entry depending on your background. Philly is also pretty good and then CIM is hosting the US Champs again this year and should have a ton of depth. CIM allows fast runners to register pretty close to the race.

I think I may be changing my goal from a sub-2:28 marathon to a sub-3:00 50K. I learned over the weekend that two of our star local runners are going to be shooting for OTQ times at my goal race and I wouldn't really be in the same vicinity. I've got to decide now if I want to run solo on a tough course for 3rd place, switch to a different distance, or pick a different goal race. I think my training is well suited to the 50k and it's been on my bucket list for a while so that's where I'm leaning right now.

I'm also considering Houston but that might cramp my spring training and I'm not sure I want to train hard over the holidays.

@slo-twitch: I live in Ft. Lauderdale, FL, originally from Miami, hence the name "SoFLo Runs." It's typically high 80's with the "feels like temperature" about 5-10 degrees higher with humidity usually in the high 60's to low 80's. For me, the water just gets zapped out of me, but luckily I haven't had any cramps on runs/workouts. When I was shooting for sub 1:10 in the HM, many commented on my lack of aerobic development, which I acknowledged. I peaked at 78 miles during that build up, with about 4-6 weeks in the mid-70's. So, for this build up, I've concentrated on just getting the mileage to as high as I can handle while not trying to be too aggressive. Lack of sleep has been the biggest challenge for me, surprisingly, not the mileage. I've read multiple threads on Twin Cities and looking at the elevation map, miles 19-23 don't seem ideal.

@NewtotheSouthSide: After doing my two HM's earlier this yr, I wanted to try to lower my PR's on the track. I was still on the fence on competing in a marathon after my track season in May and after much debate, I decided to go for it. Unfortunately, I had no idea which marathon I wanted to jump into and by the time I decided, Chicago was closed. I've contacted Chicago ADP like crazy with emails and phone calls, but no luck. The Chicago people I've spoken with said since ADP filled up last week, there is most likely no chance to get into that program. I called for Tracey Wilson, the manager of ADP, to pitch my case, but I've never spoken with her. I'm 90% sure I'm going to try the charity route and already have the paperwork for it. And no, I'm not tied to a Midwest race, just as long as the race is fast, flat-ish, and around the same time as Chicago so I don’t have to adjust the training schedule.

I've thought of CIM or even Houston, which I'm already registered for the HM, but it's too long from now for me to stay motivated in training until then. To be honest, I'm mentally ready to get the race over with, so another 2.5 months of hard marathon training seems daunting to me. Plus, I have some races scheduled in November and December scheduled that I wouldn't want to miss. That's why I'm trying to make Chicago happen.

As for the past couple of days:

Tuesday: 13 miles @ 7:13 pace

Wednesday: am: 5 miles easy, pm: 13 miles with the first 3 easy (7:04,7:17, 7:06), 3-mile tempo (5:31, 5:23, 5:24 - pace: ~5:26), 2 miles at a faster clip than the first 3 miles (6:44, 6:49), opted out of doing another 3-mile tempo and did a structured fartlek instead (5mins @ 5:33 pace, 4mins easy @ 6:42 pace, 4mins @ 5:26 pace, 3mins easy @ 6:47 pace, 3mins @ 5:28 pace). Last 1.77 miles were 7:03 and 6:44 pace. Overall, 13 miles @ 6:21 pace. Total - 18 miles

I tried to add some "tempo" work yesterday, and the fartlek portion of the run was tough. Probably a bit more that tempo effort, but with yesterday's humid conditions, I think it wasn't too bad with over 5 miles @ “tempo pace” in the middle of a 13 miler. I'm planning on 11 easy today and 9 miles tomorrow. 8K race Saturday, so hopefully I can recover by then to put a decent time.

@rfmaioral: great job with mentally sticking with the workout! It seems like it was a tough one considering the fast first 5K. I would like to tackle that workout in a week for two myself!

@smoove - i have run a 16.35 5k a few weeks before running my 2h31 high PR. It was an extremely warm day and i had done it on tired legs. You can add me to your list as well.

@immunorunner - it seems you have already the sub-2h30 on you provided conditions are good. You are in much better shape than your 72:30 HM PR. I have run faster than that but wouldn't be able to keep up with you on your recent workouts - or at least I would need a longer rest!

@physicaltherapist - your schedule looks very solid and consistent, and at the same time not exactly that hard - which perhaps makes you the smartest among is! Your 1h10 Half is better than your 2h33 Marathon and indicates that a 2h28 Marathon is possible.

@mikemike - great schedule and looks like you are there as well; 22 miles averaging sub 6 in a close to 100 miles week looks great

@andy - amazed by your high mileage and progressive workouts. Congrats! With such a schedule, i would stick to the Marathon, but i never thought of doing a 50k myself and with your mileage you would excel on it.

@SoFlo - i have to agree with Smoove, your schedule looks a bit soft. However you are covering a good mileage + your PR up to 5000m are quite fast and you certainly have the potential to break 1h10 and go well under 2h30 with your sub 15 PR. Curious to see hoe your 3 x 5000 goes.

as for myself, today I run 8 miles quite easy to recover from the 3 x 5000 of yesterday.

Tomorrow and Saturday will add some milage doubling it but going easy, and sunday will challenge myself once again with a 32 km (20 miles) like this:

3 km easy

7 km @ Marathon Pace (roughly 25 min)

3 km easy

7 km @ sligthly faster than MP (roughly 24.45)

3 km easy

7 km @ slightly faster than HM pace (roughly 24.30)

2 km cool down

Am pushing myself this week to run 80 miles which is about the best i can do with work

Next monday i travel to China again (rest day) and from tuesday on lots of treadmill training coming over.

good luck everyone!

Ops. For the 3rd 7k segment above, read 'slightly faster than MP'and not Half Marathon. HM pace would be just under 24 which would be too fast for such a workout.

Would be very happy to finish @ 24.30

Weather looks much cooler on sunday between 10-20 celsius degrees which is a good sign.

I haven't done 3x5k but that's something my club always does before marathons, so I'll likely be doing it this fall sometime. would plan to do it as a progression, so maybe 17:40s, 17:10s, 16:40s.

before I ran 2:32 at CIM 2016 I did 2x3mi in 16:25ish. I could have probably done 3 but it would have been an incredible effort and might have slowed down some.

I just did an interesting track workout this Tuesday. didn't know the workout until 5 minutes before we began, so didn't have the best shoe choice. wore the nike zoom fly SPs which aren't good on the curves of a track at high speed, FYI. my heel is bruised from my XC race on saturday so flats weren't an option either.

anyway, the workout was 4x200, 2x400, 1x800, 2x400, 4x200 with equal distance jogs at around 8:30 pace. other than a 5x200 workout I did in July this is my first real speedwork in MONTHS, and first since injury. ran 33-36s for the 200s (plan was 36 but that felt too easy), 71-74 for the 400s, and 2:29 for the single 800. not very impressive but I was still very sore going into it and was ready to bail at any moment.

I'd like to go do one of my old standard workouts to see where I'm really at. maybe 10x400 with 200 jogs, or 5x1000.

I just signed up for Houston as a back up for CIM. It's 1/20/19 so I have an extra 6 weeks after CIM. that could be good as I will be able to race Club XC Nats in Spokane.

somebody mentioned doing a road 50k, that could be fun too. I'd like to try to break 3 hours one day. I want to run a road 100k next year potentially to see if I have a shot at making the world 100k team. in fact I plan to do a few flat ultras next year.

Anyone in the Portland, OR area or Seattle, WA area want to catch a run next week? I'll be flying into Portland @ midnight on Wed, 08/29 and staying until Sat, 09/01. I'll be at Seattle from 09/01-Mon, 09/03. I'm planning to do all of my runs in the morning. My long run will be Saturday, most likely at Leif Erikson Drive (23 miles-ish). Email me at

jestrada400@yahoo.com

if you want to meet up on any of those days.

Also, if anyone knows of any good running trails/areas to run in Portland or Seattle that you like, please let me know!

@rfmaioral that's a really brutal workout. I've never done a 3X3 but it sounds like a monster. Even 17:15s show that you're in great shape.

@SloFlo runs - post the link to your fundraiser for Chicago if you end up doing it I'd be happy to donate. I guess it depends if they'll let you start in corral A?

@reed what is your CIM goal? Are you local to CIM? CIM is close to me so signed up as my backup race if I don't break 2h30 in Chicago. If i do break 2h30 then not sure what I'll do - maybe find someone to relay fast with me or maybe join the OTQ women's group as a pacer or something.

thanks mike for the incentive. It seems this thread is becoming more social, so why not giving it a try... anyone here running Amsterdam with the sub2h30 goal? I am traveling to run the race alone and would be happy to work together towards that goal at race's day (i know chances are minimal of finding someone here running it but who knows). For 2019 I plan flying to the US to run Boston... still very far away but a thread shall come in due time.

i had a great week, managing to run 80 miles with quality. Besides the 3x5000m earlier in the week, today I have run a 33 km (20.5 miles) like this:

3 km easy

7 km @ MP (24.54)

3 km Easy

7 km @ MP (24.46)

3 km Easy

7 km @ MP (24.38), slightly faster than mp

3 km Easy

the easy parts were between 7.30 - 8.30 / mile pace. It was a good workout, finally temperatures dropped to around 17, 18 celsius, and i felt well, was tired but not spent in the end (as i was after the 3 x 5000m).

it is very challenging for me to do high mileage and most probably this will be my peak week. It doesnt help that i travel very often for work and it is to china (at least good treadmills at the hotel...). Next week I am there, then a week in Europe and two weeks in China again.

these next 4 weeks will define what i can do on October 21st.

i tried to copy my full 15 weeks program here, but it did not work well, would be great to be able to insert a table as i have the trainings in excel.

good luck everyone and wish you all a great week.