Sub 2h30 Fall Marathon

This taper has been interesting, but I'm feeling ready to go. I felt awful the second half of last week, struggling through a 13 mile easy run. My legs were achy and I was having troubles sleeping. Saturday things really changed and now I feel great. Yesterday I did 3 x 1600 relaxed and ended up running them all in about 5:20 with 400m jog. Hopefully I still feel this good in Richmond on Saturday!

I'm bib number 201 if anyone wants to track me. Thanks everyone for your help on this thread!

For anybody who races in the VF 4%...

1. Did you break them in at all with a workout? If so, what would you suggest?

2. Are they really snug on your feet or do you have a little bit of wiggle room in the toes? I bought two pair (1/2 size different) and can't decide how they're supposed to be.

I figure I'd rather ask in here than open a brand new thread about it.

@marathonNoob - I think my workout is scheduled for the same time, but I'll be looking to see how you did as soon as I'm back to my phone. You picked a great day to race, and it sounds like you're ready. Tear it up, and have fun!

@slo-twitch - I'd split the difference by going for a negative split. Take the first half out in something that'll get you a PR if you run even, and then go for broke after 20 miles. I'm a bit biased because my best races were off of 2 and 4 minute negative splits, but I do have a theory for it. It's almost impossible to know exactly what your highest possible marathon pace is, so negative splitting is safer. Also, the psychological component matters a lot; you can only suffer so much, and negative splitting ensures that the suffering starts later, plus you get the excitement of passing people and finishing like a hero to keep you going.

@Tyler_Runs_Lifts - I don't think that any modern shoes need to be broken in, and that includes the VF4. That said, I would absolutely test them out to make sure they work for you. Do something long so you know if they'll aggravate your feet in any weird ways. As for fit, I found the uppers on the original version to be very loose, but there was no way to avoid it if I wanted the footbed to be big enough. I just tied them kind of tight and it worked fine. The only thing to worry about was hairpin turns because they're not very stable. The new flyknit uppers are much more snug. I'll be testing them out in another week, but they feel fine to me walking around the house because they have a little give (normally an upper that tight would be problematic, but most uppers don't have any stretch).

I bought then back in February, anticipating wearing them for Boston. I wore them the day they arrived to do strides just to see how they felt. They felt really odd. I wore them a couple of days in a 4 mile race run at closer to tempo pace to break them in. They still felt odd early, but I didn't notice them later in the race. I then wore them at the USA 15k Championships figuring that it would be good to feel them on at a full race effort. I really didn't notice them at all in that race. So I would advocate getting a couple of races in wearing them - you really don't want to notice your shoes on race day.

As far as fit goes, I wear a 12 in the Adios and a 12.5 in trainers, so I went with a 12 in the VF. They are much roomier than any other flat I have worn at that size and I was really concerned because they are wide, as you describe. I had to cinch the laces so tight that the upper has a crease in it in the toe box area. Notwithstanding that, I had no issue with the creasing or the relative roominess on race day.

@Jreddy @Smoove - Thank you for your responses. I bought them in anticipation of my December marathon. I ran 2:48:37 in my debut back at Grandma's Marathon in June, but am training for sub-2:40 right now (I know this isn't for sub-2:40 people). The marathon in December (Rocket City Marathon) has about 26 turns in the first half and quite a bit in the second half, many of them appear to be 90 degrees or so, hopefully they'll be rounded off. I have a 10K this weekend and a 5 mile race on Thanksgiving in the lead up to the marathon but don't want to waste the VF on those. Then again, like y'all said, there is something to be said about knowing how the shoes feel before the marathon.

I wore them in Chicago this year - that is a really fast course, but it does have something like 30 turns of 90 degrees or more. I agree with Jreddy that they corner more like a Honda Accord than a Porsche 911, but I would say that this is a more than fair tradeoff for the benefits of the shoe.

Credit to @des for going for it in your marathon dude. Sometimes you just have to go for it.

Great to read the posts on here. Training for sub 2h30 at Valencia marathon myself in a few weeks. Have done a few posts about it on fastrunning.com and here's the latest:

https://www.fastrunning.com/opinion/easy-reads/chasing-sub-230-marathon-training-starting-to-click/20675

My background is 24hr and ultra running. I've run 261km for 24hrs, but that was everything going perfectly and I figured a good marathon cycle or two would help me improve my potential over the longer stuff.

I'm based in Chamonix, France at about 4000ft and don't actually have anything more than 150m of flat around me, but I do have a one mile loop and a 300m track that I used A LOT. Otherwise mostly on trails or visiting somewhere with a flatter bit of road like the Swiss Valais.

At first I struggled running 5:40-43 and, although I could run it, it certainly didn't feel possible for marathon distance. Gradually everything has started to click a little bit and I was pleased to run a controlled 71:53 for half in Lausanne, Switzerland a couple weeks ago.

My mileage has been between 75-90 but the additional climbing of 6-7000ft make it 85-105 in terms of time and effort.

Workouts have been clicking nicely last couple weeks. Last Saturday I managed a 10 mile tempo at 5:35s on a dirt and road loop and have had some really good track workouts recently too.

Favourites being 5 x 2km in 6:41, 6:39, 6:36, 6:34, 6:34 and 12, 10 8 minutes off 2 min rests in 5:24s, 5:17s & 5:13s.

Reading other people's stories and journeys on here is really helpful.

I've got a local 7k race this weekend and then three weeks until the big day in Spain.

And now I realise that if you post a link in the middle of the article a big picture of yourself comes up and you look like a d**k. My bad.

I actually laughed out loud at your last post, nicely done.

Your training looks great though, I ran 2:31 last month with a 71:21 tune up and I would have struggled to hit that 2k workout. I would think that sub 2:30 is certainly within reach, good luck in Valencia!

Robbie! I think you follow me on twitter or something...your name seems very familiar

did some googling...

I didn't realize you'd run 261km for 24hr...that's insane! 3rd at worlds! but Courtney Dauwalter may hit that in a few weeks if the weather is good...womens WR is about 259km or 260km I think?

I think you'll have a good shot at 2:29 with a 71high and your background. Some guys can run 2:29 off of 1:12high, but they aren't world class 24hr runners! you gotta have a good shot if weather cooperates.

Women's record holder is a Polish lady with 259 and will be great to see Courtney have a crack at it. I'm going to be in Phoenix for the race supporting a friend (seemed like a good thing to do a week after the marathon for some time off).

Thanks for the encouraging comments, I'll keep cracking along and come back to let you guys know how it goes.

Key long run on Monday of 30km with 6 x 3km at 5:40s so will see how that goes. I'm looking forward it, but also slightly scared. I'm hoping that's the right balance. Ha.

Go Crush it @marathonNoob! You've got this.

24hr Runnner wrote:

Women's record holder is a Polish lady with 259 and will be great to see Courtney have a crack at it. I'm going to be in Phoenix for the race supporting a friend (seemed like a good thing to do a week after the marathon for some time off).

Thanks for the encouraging comments, I'll keep cracking along and come back to let you guys know how it goes.

Key long run on Monday of 30km with 6 x 3km at 5:40s so will see how that goes. I'm looking forward it, but also slightly scared. I'm hoping that's the right balance. Ha.

that doesn't sound too bad actually. basically 6x11min at MP.

and man would I like to be in Phoenix for that race. bummer that Sage dropped from the 100mi attempt but would still be a fun party on the sidelines, with lots of splits to analyze!

Well... that hurt!

I went out in 1:14:30 just like I wanted to, and I was feeling really good. Miles 15-18 were uphill and into a pretty strong headwind and after that the wheels completely fell off. By mile 17, although I was still on pace for sub 2:30, my vision had gone blurry and I knew I was done for. I crawled through the last 8 miles, finishing in 2:37.

That's still a 15 minute pr so I can't complain too much, but I can't help but be a little disappointed when I thought my training suggested I had a legitimate chance at sub 2:30. This is only my second real marathon, so at the very least I think I've gained some valuable experience for the future. Thanks again everyone for your help!

marathonNoob wrote:

Well... that hurt!

I went out in 1:14:30 just like I wanted to, and I was feeling really good. Miles 15-18 were uphill and into a pretty strong headwind and after that the wheels completely fell off. By mile 17, although I was still on pace for sub 2:30, my vision had gone blurry and I knew I was done for. I crawled through the last 8 miles, finishing in 2:37.

That's still a 15 minute pr so I can't complain too much, but I can't help but be a little disappointed when I thought my training suggested I had a legitimate chance at sub 2:30. This is only my second real marathon, so at the very least I think I've gained some valuable experience for the future. Thanks again everyone for your help!

Wow, dude. I have to say, considering how you were feeling, that's actually not that bad of a positive split at all! I heard the wind was pretty rough. Props for going for it, and you're right, you definitely can't complain about a 15 minute PR. Enjoy some down time!

That's still a good effort MarathonNoob and will make the sub2:30 even more satisfying when it does come. Hats off to you for suffering through to a 2:37 still.

Almost there. This week I did 120 miles again (first time I had back-to-back 120 mile weeks, and I was feeling the mileage).

Did a treadmill workout on Wednesday w/ 5@11.2mph, 1@12mph, 1@8mph, and 1@12.4mph. BIG asterisk on that because I think the treadmill must be slanted slightly down or something. The speed is pretty accurate because I have a calibrated footpod, and my legs were flying, but my heart rate just didn't get super high. I run on this treadmill a lot, so I can compare workouts, but I never try to equate it to outdoor running. I've done an hour at 11.2 on this treadmill before, which I obviously can't do outdoors. 11.2 mph was feeling like roughly MP, and the 12 mph and 12.4 mph were closer to HMP/10k effort. I felt fine when I was done, but I had more DOMS than I've had in a while afterwards

Friday I did 14 @ around 7 minute pace.

Sunday I planned to do a super low key local marathon in the low six minute range, but my legs were just feeling like garbage. It wasn't hard work, but I just didn't have much spring in my step. I guess that's what a couple weeks at 120 (and maybe that Wednesday treadmill workout) will do. I dropped out before the last loop at 17.5 miles. I averaged 6:15 pace, so still a decent long run. No question I could've kept going, and I could have gone faster, but it just felt like it wouldn't have been the right effort level.

Plan is to take it down to about 100 this week. Running the Philly Half on Saturday, and I'll take two super easy days before that. I'd love a PR, but anything a little faster than MP would be just fine. I'm going to put a "comfortably hard" speed limit on myself. I don't want to go to dark places two weeks out from CIM.

reed wrote:

great work des. would've been better for sure if you had some people to work with or at least aim at in the middle.

I had another great week, probably my best yet of this build in quality and quantity.

in all singles I hit 81 miles with a 20mi steady long run at 6:40 pace, one moderate 50min stretch on trails, and one track workout. the track workout was deeks quarters (google it...but it's 8x400 at just under 5k pace with float 200 recoveries at MP) ended up splitting 16:19 for 3 miles at an easy effort. probably puts me in at least 16:05 shape.

hit 320 miles in October, about 72 mpw average. would be awesome to hit over 350 in November. October 2017 was in the 380s which will be hard to top for a monthly PB, but I'd rather hit that in December or January anyway when it really matters.

last week's update (anybody still training for anything?)

the buildup continues for yours truly as I steadily get back into shape. I guess I am in shape, but not in the shape I want to be.

my week ending Nov 11th was 82 miles with a mona fartlek on wednesday , a few trail runs that were a touch beyond a truly easy pace, and a progression long run of just 15 miles to close out the week. fires in california are impacting training for most people but I've been dodging the smoke by heading to the hills. workouts are lacking but at least I'm getting the volume in.

this week isn't quite over yet but is shaping up nicely.

did a trail run wednesday with a 30min hard section on technical trails. not quite a tempo effort but probably hard enough. had to do 11 miles on the treadmill on thursday, my longest TM run ever (by 7+ miles) but enjoyable as I ran "with" two friends on the 'mills next to me. ran 9 today with an air filter mask on which is kind of like wearing those fake altitude masks. they restrict breathing so my 7:00s felt more like 6:40s, but still better than a treadmill for sure. plan for tomorrow is 18ish miles moderate on trails. should end up with 85 miles and about 6000' of climbing for the week, which is about what I'd like to hit for most weeks this winter.

85 miles isn't feeling much harder than 70 was a month ago, so it seems like I can build to mid-90s safely. not sure when I'll cap the mileage, but I suppose I'll have to stop building one week.

I was supposed to race a half marathon last weekend and a XC 10k today but both were cancelled due to smoke. hoping that my turkey trot isn't cancelled as that's my last focus race of 2018 (10k, fast course). the goal is probably to start at 5:20 pace and see what happens.

@reed: The real trick to mileage isn't just getting up there and surviving, but getting to where X+20 feels like X used to. Sounds like you're doing that really well. Just stay healthy and keep thinking long term.

This week was 93 miles, a little lower than planned.

Did a 4 mile alternation workout on Tuesday (3/4 of a mile at MP, 1/4 at 5k/10k effort, repeat). I always like this workout as a little dash of high end maintenance, plus it makes MP feel psychologically so easy.

Saturday I did the Philly Half in 1:13:02, which I'm okay with. I went out with a big pack a little faster than I had initially planned, hitting three miles in about 16 flat, and by mile 5 I was feeling it. The middle miles hurt, but by 9 or so I was feeling recovered, and then 5:30 felt comfortable. It was a reasonably hard effort, but I didn't go to the well either.

Two weeks left to CIM. Probably will do 90 miles this week with a Turkey Trot and a 14 miler in the low sixes over the weekend.