Sub 2h30 Fall Marathon

I would love to be an active participant in this thread, but I got a stress fracture back in April and wasn't the best on rest and recovery, so it still bothers me a bit. I'm waiting until my left leg just feels normal again. But being a yahoo that doesn't know how to take it easy, I'm a bit scared to get back running because I feel like I will injure myself again. In the meantime, there is a world class pool down the street and my swimming keeps getting better and my softball swing has come around.

Was hoping for a 2:35 or so at Ottawa or Duluth on half-a$$ training this spring and then taking a serious go at sub-2:30 training this fall. If I feel good by mid-August, I'll probably sign up for the local fall marathon and just shoot for sub-2:40 or something. Was originally hoping to get back at it and jog a solid sub-2:50 BQ at Erie in early September as basically a training run, but that would be stupid at this point.

Recent PRs are 16:28 5k, ~34:00 10k, 1:15 half in garbage conditions (wind, cold, snow flurries, no man's land for half the race).

I finally had a decent session yesterday too.

2 miles up

3 miles at tempo pace (16:25)

3:00 passive rest

2 miles at tempo pace (11:05)

2:00 passive rest

1 mile at tempo pace (5:28)

2 miles down

On the one hand, averaging around 5:30 pace puts me about 8 seconds per mile slower than when I ran a similar workout last October (5k/3k/2k that time), but that workout was in 72 degree temps after a long and hot summer training session as compared to 88 degree temps last night. Also interesting is that workout was about 2-2.5 months before I ran 1:11:04 for a half (a time that I thought was a bit of an underperformance for my fitness), and I am now almost exactly the same distance out from Chicago as I was from that half when I ran that workout.

Then I looked at where I was this winter when I ran a similar workout before aborting my Boston cycle due to injury. I did a 3/3/2 in February about a month before racing a 49:17 15k, and averaged about 5:24 pace there on an 81 degree day.

For yet another point of comparison, I went back and looked at my training cycle for Chicago 2015 when I ran 2:30:52, which should be a better comparison set of workouts since those were done in the summer as well. Many of my tempo sessions then averaged just under 5:20 when I was doing mile repeats, but when doing 2 mile repeats, mid 5:20s were not uncommon. And I was much more workout ready going into that cycle. (I also think I was in 2:28 shape if I had raced smarter that day and had an ideal outcome - the holy grail of marathon running that is never attained, but always sought).

So I have a bit of work to do to improve my fitness between now and October 7th, but this was the first workout that I have done and then compared to past workouts that left me feeling like going sub 2:30 is a realistic goal, even if I know the workout itself shows that I am not quite there yet.

Good stuff Smoove, 16.25 for 3 miles under 88 degrees is pretty solid. 15k in 49:24 would convert to a sub 1h11 Half I guess... it seems that a 2h28 / 2h29 is indeed realistic for you, provided that you have good conditions at race day.

I am not in that level yet - probably 90s behind you for the Half and 3 min for the Marathon, but will keep chasing the improvement.

i am now evaluating which 1 or 2 races to run before October 21st (Amsterdam Marathon). Too many travels so thats always a challenge.

If everything goes all right i am running Boston next year as well, so hope to see you guys there (hopefully as sub 2h30 runners already!).

16:25 for 3 miles is definitely moving for this time of the year, and given the pace of the next two reps you weren't over-cooking it. That's about as good of a sign as you can get 10 weeks out.

rfmaioral wrote:

Good stuff Smoove, 16.25 for 3 miles under 88 degrees is pretty solid. 15k in 49:24 would convert to a sub 1h11 Half I guess... it seems that a 2h28 / 2h29 is indeed realistic for you, provided that you have good conditions at race day.

.

Smoove thinks he can get back to his March fitness level by October but it doesn't work that way. He's lost a considerable amount of fitness since then, his injuries have not completely healed, he's substituting elliptical miles on occasion for actual miles, and is jumping in a pool to cool down during long runs. Training through a harsh Florida summer is already an uphill battle, add to that coming back from injury and asking your body to run a lifetime best by October is just unrealistic. He has the talent to run sub-2:30, why not give himself more time and shoot for a winter/spring marathon? A few extra months will not make him 50 years old all of a sudden. I'm just afraid that he will put too much effort into this marathon, crawl in to a sub-2:37, maybe re-aggravate an injury or something and be unable to run another marathon for another year after that. Do the smart thing Smoove and give yourself an extra 3-4 months to prepare for a sub-2:30 attempt.

I disagree with most of what you said, although I do agree that the possibility of re-injury is a legitimate concern. It is probably the biggest potential roadblock to it being reasonable to take a shot at sub 2:30 in Chicago.

As to my ability to regain my fitness from before my injury and how "it doesn't work that way," I am not sure why you would think you have a better sense of my improvement curve than I do since I have been competing on and off for 28 years and resultingly have a pretty good sense of my fitness and my ability to improve that fitness. I won't bore everyone, but I can demonstrate the reasonableness of my lack of worry about my ability to improve my fitness in 8 more weeks with training logs and race results from the last few years.

I would also note that while I have been slow to reincorporate workouts up until now, I have quietly and steadily put together a pretty solid period of training. If I run my planned mileage today through Sunday, I will have averaged a fraction of a mile under 60 miles per week of running over the 10 weeks ending Sunday, with another4 or so "mile equivalents" per week on the elliptical, and that will include weeks of 77 and 80 miles, and a top 7 day stretch of close to 90 miles (a result of the fact that one long run was done on a Sunday one week and the following week I did my long run on a Saturday). So I have rebuilt my base pretty well at this point and am well positioned to improve and sharpen my fitness by incorporating more consistent workouts.

The rest of the stuff - cross training some, using my pool to cool me down during 20 milers when the temps are in the 80s and the dew points are in the high 70s (I have also adjusted to an 8 day "week" as compared to 7 day weeks in previous cycles) - that is just being smart about how I come back and about training in the summer in Florida.

All of that being said, I am registered for the Houston Half and am pretty sure that they will move my entry to the full marathon if I ask them to, so if things seem to be coming apart (or not progressing) over the next 8 or so weeks before my taper, I already have planned an alternative.

Andy, you’ve abandoned your Kenyan approach?

Haha, yes. It was a lot of fun but I didn't peak for my goal race at all. I ran a minute faster than NYC which was during a 100 mile week. I'm not necessarily going to blame the training plan but I'm going to do something more traditional this time around.

Hi Smoove! :) I just got a "crazy" idea! Why don`t you let me coach you up to your next marathon? I will do it for free

just to demonstrate the power of the system ( even if you already use Daniels formula my system have as you know more things that will add power). Could be a funny experiment here live on the boards . :)

andydufresne2 wrote:

Haha, yes. It was a lot of fun but I didn't peak for my goal race at all. I ran a minute faster than NYC which was during a 100 mile week. I'm not necessarily going to blame the training plan but I'm going to do something more traditional this time around.

Maybe test the traditional transformed future way?

1.12.15 at the half will be just fine to break 2.30. With me as the coach of course. But taking down the half to 1.10 shouldn`t be a problem and then a good chance running 2.25 !

Finished my third week running a tempo half marathon on saturday morning at 3:45 pace (1h18). It was tiring after like 350 km in the last 20 days. Rested sunday on the plane traveling. Am now in China this week, lots of treadmill running...

Smoove, looking forward to see your progress here.

Coach JS, thanks but not interested in your approach.

Same here. This upcoming week I have 4 x 2 miles at 5:30+/- pace with 2:00 rest and a long run of 18 with 13 at marathon pace on the calendar. I'm traveling a little (just over to he beach), so I may need to vary the long run some.

Good luck on getting training in while traveling internationally.

rfmaioral wrote:

Finished my third week running a tempo half marathon on saturday morning at 3:45 pace (1h18). It was tiring after like 350 km in the last 20 days. Rested sunday on the plane traveling. Am now in China this week, lots of treadmill running...

Smoove, looking forward to see your progress here.

Coach JS, thanks but not interested in your approach.

I can`t see I asked you?

Smoove, what do you consider to be Marathon Pace at this stage? When you say you run 13 miles at Marathon Pace, would that represent a Half-Marathon in 1h14:XX?

I ask because though my target race pace is 1h14:59 and the pace of my best Marathon was ~ 1h15:56 (today would be more like 1h16:30 in optimal conditions), I am unable to follow this pace at this stage of the programme for so long. Whilst running 65-70 mpw the best I can do for a Half (so that I do not feel completely exhausted after, only "very tired") is a 1h18. In fact, that is exactly what I did last Saturday.

The 4 x 2 miles with 2:00 @ 5:30 is a great workout. I remember doing it before my Marathon PR. However, though I could keep 5:30 as a pace, my interval timing would be longer (a lap jogging, so more like 2:30-2:45) - hence another reason why you are certainly a step ahead in your sub2h30 quest!

SUPERIOR COACH JS wrote:

rfmaioral wrote:

Finished my third week running a tempo half marathon on saturday morning at 3:45 pace (1h18). It was tiring after like 350 km in the last 20 days. Rested sunday on the plane traveling. Am now in China this week, lots of treadmill running...

Smoove, looking forward to see your progress here.

Coach JS, thanks but not interested in your approach.

I can`t see I asked you?

Yes you did - "1.12.15 at the half will be just fine to break 2.30. With me as the coach of course".

So yes thanks for suggesting but I am not interested so you can refrain from doing it next time.

I've always run them at goal marathon pace, which in the past has been pretty much the same as my then-estimated present marathon pace because in past cycles, I've already been pretty fit coming into this phase of my training cycle, and the goal of the remainder of the cycle was to stretch that 5k/10k fitness to full marathon fitness.

This cycle is a little bit different in that I need to actually build fitness (and not just extend distance) during this part of the cycle, so I'm going to need to adjust things a bit. I am thinking that I will try to run about 5:50, but if I were a betting man, I'd bet that I will struggle some with the weather, and will break the 13 miles straight up into something like 5/5/3 on the fly.

Historically, this workout has been one I've struggled with quite a bit.

rfmaioral wrote:

SUPERIOR COACH JS wrote:

I can`t see I asked you?

Yes you did - "1.12.15 at the half will be just fine to break 2.30. With me as the coach of course".

So yes thanks for suggesting but I am not interested so you can refrain from doing it next time.

You are not interested to a guaranteed success? Well , it`s of course up to you buddy….. Good luck anyway! :)

andydufresne2 wrote:

Haha, yes. It was a lot of fun but I didn't peak for my goal race at all. I ran a minute faster than NYC which was during a 100 mile week. I'm not necessarily going to blame the training plan but I'm going to do something more traditional this time around.

Just curious…..what was that "Kenyan approach " about?