How the worlds best marathoner trains!

So Kenyans don't do 20 x 400m?

Sand Dunes wrote:

So Kenyans don't do 20 x 400m?

They did one week ago , with Eliud. 20 by 400m at 63-64 , rest 200m jog

I thought this was going to be about Jim Walmsley.

Kenya scout wrote:

Workout of the day with Kipchoge. LT- intervals 5 by 2000m at 5:40- 5:45 min and 5 by 1000m at 2: 45- 2:50 min.

Great workout at Magic pace™ ! ;-)

Not even too fast for him, the 2000 stand at 101.5-103% that is a fast run but made at the aerobic threshold, it is more a fast run of modular type, while 1000 to 2? and 45 " has gone to 105.5%.

The 400 are low the same , they are at 108-110.5 %, the rhythm of a 10k, is an interval training, but not at the limit of the VO2 max which for him means 58 ".

Dimitry wrote:

Not even too fast for him, the 2000 stand at 101.5-103% that is a fast run but made at the aerobic threshold, it is more a fast run of modular type, while 1000 to 2? and 45 " has gone to 105.5%.

The 400 are low the same , they are at 108-110.5 %, the rhythm of a 10k, is an interval training, but not at the limit of the VO2 max which for him means 58 ".

Yes he could do 20 x 400 in 57-58 average. So could lots of Americans but they think it's impossible, or they wouldn't recover, or they would need drugs or whatever.

I would like to see some well known coach, who isn't an attention seeking spammer, or a not quite getting the big picture ex phys geek point this out in a well written book that every runner and coach could read.

I used to have my high school kids do an off season workout to keep leg speed:

They would do 4-5 miles of 200 at 5k pace followed by 200 real easy.

They were 16:00 guys for the most part.

There's no reason a full time runner can't do 20x400.

How does altitude training improve performance, if it does?

Been pondering this for many years. Well it ain't red blood cell counts, that's a red herring.

Question; how fast can a low altitude dweller do hill reps at altitude if they don't try too hard and build the pace gradually?

Probably almost as fast as they can at sea level, even though they are using 15% less energy.

What I'm trying to say, I'll say it another way with another question:

Have you ever run up a hill so fast it felt amazing, but when you got to the top you weren't out of breath?

Something else is going on that everyone and his dog is not talking about. The training culture is to show how heroically you can train. It's not a well thought out paradigm.

Bumping the Lydiard v Daniels thread is pointless if we can't post there Mr Mod.

Lydiard's message slightly confuses the picture. He said we can constantly improve oxygen uptake, which is completely wrong. and it makes people believe in silly stuff like blood boosting, which has become a quasi religious dogma in my lifetime and yours.

Oxygen uptake doesn't work like that. Our maximum level is stable by necessity of normal everyday energy demand. It's efficiency we can constantly improve. That's why we need a new paradigm.

Dimitry wrote:

Not even too fast for him, the 2000 stand at 101.5-103% that is a fast run but made at the aerobic threshold, it is more a fast run of modular type, while 1000 to 2? and 45 " has gone to 105.5%.

The 400 are low the same , they are at 108-110.5 %, the rhythm of a 10k, is an interval training, but not at the limit of the VO2 max which for him means 58 ".

Think it over again . They are up at 6500 feet! Even if they are used to the altitude it gets harder and harder the longer the rep is. And the 400s are at 5 K race pace , close to VO2max. No runner in the world have so far in history got 58 " 400s at VO2max. More like 60-61 " for Bekele when running WR at 5000/ 10000.

It was not specified that it was in altitude.

yes, before I used the inverse proportion, I was wrong, for that I was overestimated, is VO2 max can be at the limit of 2 'and 29 "-30" so 59 "6-60".

Kenya scout wrote:

Think it over again . They are up at 6500 feet! Even if they are used to the altitude it gets harder and harder the longer the rep is. And the 400s are at 5 K race pace , close to VO2max. No runner in the world have so far in history got 58 " 400s at VO2max. More like 60-61 " for Bekele when running WR at 5000/ 10000.

Forget about the VO2 max reference, it's irrelevant. The purpose of any fast session is to get used to running at a certain pace for longer, training the brain to maintain a stride pattern for longer not training 'energy systems'.

inferior coach know nuthin wrote:

Dimitry wrote:

Not even too fast for him, the 2000 stand at 101.5-103% that is a fast run but made at the aerobic threshold, it is more a fast run of modular type, while 1000 to 2? and 45 " has gone to 105.5%.

The 400 are low the same , they are at 108-110.5 %, the rhythm of a 10k, is an interval training, but not at the limit of the VO2 max which for him means 58 ".

Yes he could do 20 x 400 in 57-58 average. So could lots of Americans but they think it's impossible, or they wouldn't recover, or they would need drugs or whatever.

I would like to see some well known coach, who isn't an attention seeking spammer, or a not quite getting the big picture ex phys geek point this out in a well written book that every runner and coach could read.

Running 20 by 400s in 57-58 for Kipchoge today would be the same as running slightly faster than his current 1500m race pace, so that would be the same as running a repetition of 20 by 400s faster than 1500m race pace! Makes no sense guys.

And besides, I think one of the worlds best coaches, P. Sang, knows better what to do ,dont you?

I'm not saying he should run that workout. Just saying, back in the day when he was a 5000m runner he coulda run workout like that.

But now he's a marathon runner he trains differently, but still does awesome workouts from which he recovers quickly. And he works on the farm too, he doesn't sit around or lie around for the rest of the day.

Yes, the max interval training for marathon runners is 117.5% in inverse proportion.

for example Baldini would make 20 x 400 to 61.6 that is your max interval training, in the 117.5% kipchoge conditions would make 20 x 400 at 59.6.

inferior coach know nuthin wrote:

Kenya scout wrote:

Think it over again . They are up at 6500 feet! Even if they are used to the altitude it gets harder and harder the longer the rep is. And the 400s are at 5 K race pace , close to VO2max. No runner in the world have so far in history got 58 " 400s at VO2max. More like 60-61 " for Bekele when running WR at 5000/ 10000.

Forget about the VO2 max reference, it's irrelevant. The purpose of any fast session is to get used to running at a certain pace for longer, training the brain to maintain a stride pattern for longer not training 'energy systems'.

Now you are thinking like its possible to drive a car with the computers controller and memory without having a car engine.

No, we are training movement patterns. The engine is already there. The 'energy systems' look after themselves.

If it was about 'improving the engine' cyclists would be able to run a fast 5000, but they can't because they don't have the specific skills to do this without training those skills.

Likewise Eliud Kipchoge could not cycle fast up a mountain road.

Coach JS, and everyone else here, learn some real physiology, not the silly 'energy systems' nonsense that everyone regurgitates endlessly.

inferior coach know nuthin wrote:

No, we are training movement patterns. The engine is already there. The 'energy systems' look after themselves.

If it was about 'improving the engine' cyclists would be able to run a fast 5000, but they can't because they don't have the specific skills to do this without training those skills.

Likewise Eliud Kipchoge could not cycle fast up a mountain road.

Coach JS, and everyone else here, learn some real physiology, not the silly 'energy systems' nonsense that everyone regurgitates endlessly.

How you turn and twist on it, the cyclists still need to train the "engine", the energy systems. Likewise Kipchoge.

Besides I know a Norwegian runner with 13:11 at 5000 who now is a very good cyclist.

It looks like you are here just to tease us and pretending something that you actually know is just "rubbish". LoL

No, you're twisting it. The 'engine' the 'energy systems' are already there, they are maintained by nutrition and general exercise. Muscles increase energy and water storage by training very quickly.

I can run and bike well because I do both things, but without the training it can't be done.

I shouldn't really reply to you JS. And you shouldn't reply to yourself either. We all know you do that a lot.