Solinsky admits 2004 Wisco XC team "kind of choked" while Bairu says "we were overly confident and maybe not as focused"

LetsRun.com wrote:

One of the bigger mysteries since the creation of LetsRun.com has been, 'How in the hell did the 2004 NCAA XC team not win the NCAA title?

Colorado, that's how. As a matter of fact, Colorado upsetting the Wisconsin juggernaut was such an anomaly that it happened again in 2006.

1. 1 837 Simon Bairu Wisconsin 15:17 24:32 30:37.7

2. 2 506 Matt Gonzales New Mexico 15:17 24:33 30:40.9

3. 3 69 Josphat Boit Arkansas 15:17 24:32 30:41.8

4. 4 196 Brent Vaughn Colorado 15:26 24:44 30:48.7

5. 5 192 Bret Schoolmeester Colorado 15:26 24:49 30:56.3

6. 6 306 Simon Ngata Georgia 15:18 24:42 30:56.5

7. 397 Benson Chesang Kansas 15:17 24:39 30:59.4

8. 7 695 Nef Araia Stanford 15:26 24:45 31:04.5

9. 36 Robert Cheseret Arizona 15:18 24:39 31:05.8

10. 8 277 Rod Koborsi Georgetown 15:20 24:51 31:06.4c

11. 9 851 Matt Tegenkamp Wisconsin 15:17 24:42 31:09.7

12. 398 Mathew Chesang Kansas State 15:17 24:41 31:11.7

13. 400 Josh Mcdougal Liberty 15:18 24:47 31:14.5

14. 10 501 Shadrack Ki Biwott New Mexico 15:19 24:46 31:16.9

15. 787 Robert Curtis Villanova 15:27 25:02 31:22.1

16. 11 848 Chris Solinsky Wisconsin 15:17 24:42 31:22.3

17. 12 432 Nate Brannen Michigan 15:27 25:02 31:23.4

18. 857 Lucas Meyer Yale 15:27 25:02 31:23.9

19. 13 135 Olly Laws Butler 15:34 25:02 31:24.5

20. 14 81 Jason Sandfort Arkansas 15:27 25:01 31:26.0

21. 15 194 Jon Severy Colorado 15:34 25:04 31:26.9

22. 16 45 Aaron Aguayo Arizona State 15:20 25:02 31:27.3

23. 670 Tonny Okello South Alabama 15:17 24:46 31:30.1

24. 95 Forest Braden Boise State 15:25 25:06 31:31.7

25. 17 80 Marc Rodriguez Arkansas 15:27 25:06 31:33.9

26. 18 701 Ryan Hall Stanford 15:17 24:55 31:34.9

27. 227 Bruce Hyde Cornell 15:40 25:20 31:39.1

28. 19 479 Ryan Malmin Minnesota 15:30 25:13 31:39.2

29. 119 Jeff Gaudette Brown 15:40 25:16 31:40.2

30. 20 731 Andrew Middleton Texas 15:33 25:15 31:41.2

31. 21 596 Brian Olinger Ohio State 15:27 25:09 31:41.8

32. 22 118 Josh Rohatinsky Brigham Young 15:26 25:08 31:44.6

33. 23 363 Stephen Chemlany Iona 15:34 25:15 31:44.9

34. 24 356 Sean Jefferson Indiana 15:48 25:20 31:45.7

35. 25 543 Bobby Mack North Carolina State 15:33 25:17 31:46.0

36. 26 209 Mike Nicks Colorado State 15:41 25:29 31:47.3

37. 27 468 Andrew Carlson Minnesota 15:28 25:16 31:48.7

38. 830 Christo Landry William and Mary 15:37 25:22 31:49.1

39. 768 Jon Rankin UCLA 15:33 25:22 31:49.8

40. 666 Marcel Hewamudalige Rice 15:27 25:01 31:52.9

41. 28 136 Scott Overall Butler 15:35 25:18 31:53.1

42. 29 575 Kurt Benninger Notre Dame 15:28 25:18 31:53.4

43. 30 581 Tim Moore Notre Dame 15:32 25:19 31:55.2

44. 31 191 Stephen Pifer Colorado 16:01 25:31 31:56.8

45. 32 370 Richard Kiplagat Iona 15:34 25:19 31:57.4

46. 33 653 Martin Fagan Providence 15:38 25:26 31:58.7

47. 34 842 Tim Keller Wisconsin 15:30 25:26 31:59.0

48. 616 Dusty Lieb Penn 15:35 25:24 31:59.2

49. 35 195 James Strang Colorado 15:55 25:33 31:59.9

50. 36 267 Andrew Lemoncello Florida State 15:33 25:27 32:00.0

51. 681 Jesson Baugartner Southern Utah 15:53 25:33 32:00.3

52. 37 592 John Ealy Ohio State 15:41 25:28 32:01.4

53. 38 160 Tristen Perlberg Central Michigan 15:30 25:07 32:01.8

54. 39 843 Bobby Lockhart Wisconsin 15:42 25:28 32:02.5

88. 63 849 Josh Spiker Wisconsin 15:49 25:52 32:27.4

80. 56 193 Jared Scott Colorado 16:02 25:55 32:25.0

101. 74 844 Tim Nelson Wisconsin 15:49 25:49 32:34.5

121. 91 186 Brad Harkrader Colorado 16:01 26:04 32:50.7

It's a lot of fun looking at old xc results. There's lots of familiar names. This team battle was a barn burner tied after 4 men.

CU, Wisco: Individual points for

1st man: 4, 1, CU+3 (+ is more points than Wisco)

2nd man: 5, 9, CU-4 (- is fewer points than Wisco)

3rd man: 15, 11, CU+4

4th man: 31, 34, CU-3

5th man: 35,39, CU-4

CU-Wisco: Ttl score after

1st man: 4-1 (CU losing by 3)

2nd man: 9-10 (CU winning by 1)

3rd man: 24-21 (CU losing by 3)

4th man: 55-55 (TIED)

5th man: 90-94 (CU wins by 4)

Why are these times so slow? Altitude? Snow? Wind?

Something that hit the Badgers harder than it hit the Buffs? I mean those results look beyond choking.

Two years prior at Big Ten track 2003, they we're "resting" guys instead of trying to four-peat. At least three distance guys, Bairu, Wallace, and Festa, should have doubled instead resting for Nationals. Festa was an all American, but the other two might as well have peaked for conference. Coach was way too cute with things.

And spiker had finished in the top 10 before (9th 01) and was 3rd in the 1500 (03)

I would blame this choking on the coach. WTF was the coach back then? Mick Byrne? Schumacher?

2.6 seconds is what colorado's 5th man beat wisco's 5th man by. That made all the difference

just look at those splits. solinksy went 15.17/16.05. looks like they were flat out, out coached. i never understand why every team goes out so fast? don't give me the 'get could position' argument. its a wide open 10k, not an indoor 800m. colorado outperforms just about every year and its because they are well coached and run smart.

LetsRun.com wrote:

In case you are under the age of 30, here is the team's credentials.

Wisconsin's 2004 Dream Team

Finish At NCAAs/PR At The Time/Eventual PR

1. Simon Bairu - 13:45/28:28 - (Jr)

9. Matt Tegenkamp - 13:30 - (Sr) - 12:58/27:28

11. Chris Solinsky - 13:42 - (So) - 12:55/26:59

34. Tim Keller - 13:47 - (Sr) - 13:47

39. Bobby Lockhart - 8:01/29:11 - (jJ?) - 13:54/29:07

63. Josh Spiker - 3:42 - (Sr) - 3:40

74. Tim Nelson - 14:03/29:11 - (So) - 13:20/27:28

As someone under the age of 30 I have a couple of observations/questions:

-nowadays we see guys with similar PRs placing similarly to how these guys did at NCAAs. Were those 5k and 10k times more elite back then? I assume so because of the influx of rabbited races.

-the note about Spiker being a top 10 guy previously definitely changes things; just seeing his 3:42 PR, i assumed he was "just a miler" who was able to stretch it out for a solid NCAA xc finish.

-was bairu considered a favorite? his PRs at the time were very strong but maybe not win NCAA xc level.

-absolutely insane that matt withrow was also on this team

- what were the PRs of some of those colorado kids? it seems like it could have been even more of an outperformance on their part than a choke on wisco's part?

Dur wrote:

Why are these times so slow? Altitude? Snow? Wind?

Something that hit the Badgers harder than it hit the Buffs? I mean those results look beyond choking.

Two years prior at Big Ten track 2003, they we're "resting" guys instead of trying to four-peat. At least three distance guys, Bairu, Wallace, and Festa, should have doubled instead resting for Nationals. Festa was an all American, but the other two might as well have peaked for conference. Coach was way too cute with things.

It's cross country. Times mean absolutely nothing.

negativenancysplit wrote:

just look at those splits. solinksy went 15.17/16.05. looks like they were flat out, out coached. i never understand why every team goes out so fast? don't give me the 'get could position' argument. its a wide open 10k, not an indoor 800m. colorado outperforms just about every year and its because they are well coached and run smart.

I have a very strong feeling that you've not run at the NCAA national meet. Not so easy to weave your way around 170+ guys.

Word of experience wrote:

negativenancysplit wrote:

just look at those splits. solinksy went 15.17/16.05. looks like they were flat out, out coached. i never understand why every team goes out so fast? don't give me the 'get could position' argument. its a wide open 10k, not an indoor 800m. colorado outperforms just about every year and its because they are well coached and run smart.

I have a very strong feeling that you've not run at the NCAA national meet. Not so easy to weave your way around 170+ guys.

colorado never seems to have any problem with it.

It wasn't "kind of" a choke. It was a ridiculous choke. The race was supposed to be a coronation, not a competition.

Spiker had been ninth as a frosh. Bobby Lockhart (2001 FL runner-up) had been 23rd as a frosh.

Bairu, Tegenkamp and Solinsky went an easy 1-2-3 at an incredibly competitive Roy Griak earlier in the year.

Also on the bench were Matt Withrow, Stuart Eagon and Antony Ford.

They went out WAY too fast the first 1000 meters and all but Bairu slipped back from there.

Course was real soft too from rain in the days leading up to the race. Hence the slower times. It became a strength 10k and patience was key to have anything left for the last 2-3k on that day.

Those times were definitely more elite back then.

And for Colorado, Vaughn ran 13:30 and Schoolmeester 28:33 so they placed within their range. Still I remember being surprised they went 4/5 when the results came in. Severy definitely sacked up at 21 though. I dont think he came close to breaking 14. Pifer was more of a miler, 3:40 type I believe.

This race definitely helped make legend out of the "last 2k" for CU runners. They consistently were 10-15 seconds behind their Wisco counterparts at 5k, but made all of that up and more at the end of the race.

two hundredth place wrote:

Course was real soft too from rain in the days leading up to the race. Hence the slower times. It became a strength 10k and patience was key to have anything left for the last 2-3k on that day.

When flotrack did their series on the Colorado program they had footage from that meet. Course looks super soft and you can tell from looking at the Wisco guys in the 2nd half of the race that they are absolutely cooked. Solinsky barely gets across the finish line.

Going out too fast definitely hurt them, but you can also see from the splits that Spiker and Nelson ran poorly from the start, leaving the team no margin for error.

younguy68 wrote:

As someone under the age of 30 I have a couple of observations/questions:

-nowadays we see guys with similar PRs placing similarly to how these guys did at NCAAs. Were those 5k and 10k times more elite back then? I assume so because of the influx of rabbited races.

-the note about Spiker being a top 10 guy previously definitely changes things; just seeing his 3:42 PR, i assumed he was "just a miler" who was able to stretch it out for a solid NCAA xc finish.

-was bairu considered a favorite? his PRs at the time were very strong but maybe not win NCAA xc level.

-absolutely insane that matt withrow was also on this team

- what were the PRs of some of those colorado kids? it seems like it could have been even more of an outperformance on their part than a choke on wisco's part?

I think it's only fair if we add in the Colorado credentials. I have put them below (and will add them to post #1). I forgot I also had looked them up a few years ago. Also I added in their actual finish in the race and same for WIsconsin as the original placings were just their team placings which are a little misleading as to how well or not someone ran.

Colorado's 2004 Winning Team

Finish At NCAAs/PR At The Time/Eventual PR

4 (4). Brent Vaughn - So. 8:07/14:18 - 13:18

5 (5). Bret Schoolmeester- Jr. 13:50 - 13:39

21 (15). Jon Severy -Sr. 14:22?/30:18? - 14:10

44 (31). Stephen Pifer - Fr (redshirt) 8:04 - 13:33

49 (35). James Strang - Fr. 4:11/9:18 from HS - 13:44

80 (56). Jared Scott - Sr. 14:22?/30:18?

121 (91). Brad Harkrader - Fr 4:18/9:15 or 9:05 - 13:54

Read more:

It was a mistake to redshirt Withrow and the coach (must have been Jerry Schumacher, right?) had gone back and forth on the decision, if I recall correctly. However, you cannot say that they should have won because some guys went on to break 13 and Nelson went on to run 27 mid. You could as easily say that Spiker should have run worse because later on his career fizzled out quickly from injury/burnout. To get a fair comparison, you'd really want to look only at the then current credentials of both teams. One thing is that the difference is very small between most of the top fifty at NCAA's, so that the same runner having just a slightly worse trip or slightly worse race might shift from year to year in the standings by ten or twenty, and it happens every year. There were plenty of runners in that field who you would have thought should have placed higher. Rohatinsky, a future champ I think, was well back, as was Ryan Hall, who I think was 26th. Should a 2:06 marathoner be 26th at NCAA's?? Of course not. He never got his training right in college, as he said, usually going way too hard and having nothing in the races. Going out slower -- but not super slow-- has served Colorado very well in the past. Solinsky and Teg surely could and should have been able to maintain that 15:17 pace, though. Who knows what was going on with the other guys?

Quotes from a participant in a college race from 14 years ago?

Mondo Hondo wrote:

Quotes from a participant in a college race from 14 years ago?

What about it.

Update from Rojo: Yeah seriously. It's not like they aren't still talking about the miracle on ice from 1980 or hell even Billy Mills win from the 1960s. The guy seems to be upset that I noticed it. Yet, it's now super hot. I pretty much have a good feel for what interests people. This race still fascinates me and many others.