I haven't read "Atlas Shrugged," but I agree the premise

Revolutionary concept, we produce for use instead of for profit. No need for a medium of exchange. Just need a strong enough leader to push the paradigm shift.

Utopian Citizen wrote:

Revolutionary concept, we produce for use instead of for profit. No need for a medium of exchange. Just need a strong enough leader to push the paradigm shift.

Strong enough leader = totalitarian

Like, how the government in the Soviet Union would shoot people for black market (free market) trading for basic goods.

Youre right in the past folks agreed on a mutual store of value in currency. Very convenient.

The consensus for some organising force to help the collective was also sensible. Ie rather than everyone defending their own patchz they all chip in and have an army or police force to defend from internal and external threats. And so on... Education, roads, health (not in US obviously),

Yoffwe wrote:

Youre right in the past folks agreed on a mutual store of value in currency. Very convenient.

The consensus for some organising force to help the collective was also sensible. Ie rather than everyone defending their own patchz they all chip in and have an army or police force to defend from internal and external threats. And so on... Education, roads, health (not in US obviously),

Yes, because I want the government to be in charged over my health.

Yeah, because I want the government to have have indoctrination camps that lie to kids. Which also don't even do their supposed job.

Yeah, I want the government to have a military that kills innocent civilians overseas. Than wonder why people in the middle east hate us? I wonder if it is because we invade their homeland and kill innocent civilians?

Remind me again why we need government?

Also, what collective? I didn't agree to any collective. I didn't agree to be a citizen of this fascist government ,you call land of the free. The best slaves are the one who believe they are free. And, Americans prove that.

Also, universal health care is so great...

10/10! Excellent. Top 20 all time.

Jamin, read the book. The sex scenes are pretty steamy.

Im not American thanks.

I severly hope you never have to rely on state provided assistance else it may well just threaten your safe worldview.

Anyone who blindly trusts corporations to voluntarily act in their own interest rather than the interest of the shareholders they are beholden over a government that is accountable to its electorate is a naive idiot, which seems to be the case for the libertarian front of retards in this thread.

Economics 101. People respond to incentives and left to themselves they will screw you over left, right and sideways resulting in something called market failure which the libertarian retard front always ignores yet is a massive problem even now.

You mean by finding ways - criminal for most of us - to monopolize their markets? I mean, it was difficult to even buy a PC without Windows, even IBM would sell it over their own superior. Seems being an a-hole is the first criteria for getting to this place as well. Magazines like PC Magazine would be given business by MS and in turn become blushing brides thereafter.

And Apple? They are proprietary in ways IBM could only dream, yet there you go.

What a racket. So glad I am out of IT and not having to deal with the b@st@rds anymore.

Will you kooks please leave this country (or planet) and relocate to your utopia? Send us a postcard and let us know how you are doing.

Inside knowledge here. wrote:

Anyone who blindly trusts corporations to voluntarily act in their own interest rather than the interest of the shareholders they are beholden over a government that is accountable to its electorate is a naive idiot, which seems to be the case for the libertarian front of retards in this thread.

Economics 101. People respond to incentives and left to themselves they will screw you over left, right and sideways resulting in something called market failure which the libertarian retard front always ignores yet is a massive problem even now.

Unfortunately, too many are too naive to see this obvious truth. Same with people who think the government is the answer to any and every problem.

But if there is one thing I’ve noticed after living in the USA foe the last ten years, it’s that there is no middle ground allowed. If you’re not an advocate for a freemarket devoid of any regulations, then you're a socialist. If you criticize anything that the USA has done (e.g. torturing people), then you must hate america. Etc.

Goverment= involuntarily at gun point

Free market= voluntary exchanges

Do you see the difference?

A business isn't forcing you to buy from them.

Government is a coercive monopoly, all government is, is a extortion racket.

Business is just providing a good or service.

Do you see the difference?

Sand Dunes wrote:

Government is a coercive monopoly, all government is, is a extortion racket.

Business is just providing a good or service.

Do you see the difference?

I want your cable provider.

Sand Dunes wrote:

Goverment= involuntarily at gun point

...

Government is a coercive monopoly, all government is, is a extortion racket.

lol. With that sort of insightful and compelling argument, you should run for Congress.

Sand Dunes wrote:

RunningDerp wrote:

Unfortunately, too many are too naive to see this obvious truth. Same with people who think the government is the answer to any and every problem.

But if there is one thing I’ve noticed after living in the USA foe the last ten years, it’s that there is no middle ground allowed. If you’re not an advocate for a freemarket devoid of any regulations, then you're a socialist. If you criticize anything that the USA has done (e.g. torturing people), then you must hate america. Etc.

Goverment= involuntarily at gun point

Free market= voluntary exchanges

Do you see the difference?

A business isn't forcing you to buy from them.

Government is a coercive monopoly, all government is, is a extortion racket.

Business is just providing a good or service.

Do you see the difference?

You have literally no idea of what you're talking about.

Just to bear with your retarded fantasy for one minute. Say we abolish all drug regulations and drug laws, the FDA and everything that goes with it.

The very first thing I'm doing is starting a drug company that sells cough syrup and aspirine laced with gallons of the really good stuff the FDA doesn't want in your medicine - codeine, nicotine, crack.. whatever makes you feel good.

No regulations, no supervisory body, no problems. How do you know the stuff is actually good for you?

Well you could set up a private licensing body, but said body will only operate on a profit and thus licensed medicine will be more expensive - how much more expensive? If the licensing body does its job properly about as "expensive" as the FDA is currently, apparently a significant margin large enough to make people like you wee in their pants.

So con -fcking- gratulations, you have just got a significant proportion of the population hooked on crack.

What people like you keep forgetting that ethical behaviour is expensive in the market place and people/corporations need to be greedy bastards if they want to succeed in the marketplace. Which is (mostly) fine if they're selling yoghurt and absolutely awful if they're left to themselves in areas like healthcare or education, since the marketplace has a lot more frictions and externalities.

I find that many people who have read the book use it as an example of what can go wrong with socialism.

Well, I can write a fictional book that shows how socialism works perfectly and use that as example for my views.

What I’ve noticed is that so many people seem to think our markets are unregulated by our government.

Sand Dunes wrote:

RunningDerp wrote:

Unfortunately, too many are too naive to see this obvious truth. Same with people who think the government is the answer to any and every problem.

But if there is one thing I’ve noticed after living in the USA foe the last ten years, it’s that there is no middle ground allowed. If you’re not an advocate for a freemarket devoid of any regulations, then you're a socialist. If you criticize anything that the USA has done (e.g. torturing people), then you must hate america. Etc.

Goverment= involuntarily at gun point

Free market= voluntary exchanges

Do you see the difference?

A business isn't forcing you to buy from them.

Government is a coercive monopoly, all government is, is a extortion racket.

Business is just providing a good or service.

Do you see the difference?

Also, if you don't know I am extremely anti-war. If there was only one part of the government I could eliminate it would be the military. I realize that all wars are immoral and counterproductive.

I don't know why you guys have, so much trust in the government.

To quote Murray Rothbard:

It is curious that people tend to regard government as a quasi-divine, selfless, Santa Claus organization. Government was constructed neither for ability nor for the exercise of loving care; government was built for the use of force and for necessarily demagogic appeals for votes. If individuals do not know their own interests in many cases, they are free to turn to private experts for guidance. It is absurd to say that they will be served better by a coercive, demagogic apparatus.

Also, it isn't left vs right. It is you vs the state.

To quote Harry Browne:

Left-wing politicians take away your liberty in the name of children and of fighting poverty, while right-wing politicians do it in the name of family values and fighting drugs. Either way, government gets bigger and you become less free.

John Utah wrote:

RunningDerp wrote:

Unfortunately, too many are too naive to see this obvious truth. Same with people who think the government is the answer to any and every problem.

But if there is one thing I’ve noticed after living in the USA foe the last ten years, it’s that there is no middle ground allowed. If you’re not an advocate for a freemarket devoid of any regulations, then you're a socialist. If you criticize anything that the USA has done (e.g. torturing people), then you must hate america. Etc.

What I’ve noticed is that so many people seem to think our markets are unregulated by our government.

+1

These leftist don't realize how much red tape there is to run a buissness in America. You could ask them how much regulations we need, but they would never be satisfied. And as Ted Kaczynski put it in his manifesto you could give them everything they want today. And in five years from now they would want even more. We haven't had true capitalism in this country in over 100 years. What we have had in America for the last hundred years is economic fascism in varying degrees.

Sand Dunes wrote:

John Utah wrote:

What I’ve noticed is that so many people seem to think our markets are unregulated by our government.

+1

These leftist don't realize how much red tape there is to run a buissness in America. You could ask them how much regulations we need, but they would never be satisfied. And as Ted Kaczynski put it in his manifesto you could give them everything they want today. And in five years from now they would want even more. We haven't had true capitalism in this country in over 100 years. What we have had in America for the last hundred years is economic fascism in varying degrees.

I’m sure there are “leftists” who don’t understand the burden that regulations put on a business. And I’m sure there are “rightists” who don’t understand the burden that lack of regulations put on consumers.

Thankfully, I think most people fall somewhere in between, and know the obvious truth that there is a need for regulations but that there can also be unnecessary regulations.