Road Racing and Training Thread Week Ending 7-8-18

runrincerepeat wrote:

Speaking of pain... RRR is trying not to get discouraged w his A$$ pain and just Cross Train like a phene ..but 2 weeks and it still hurts. Maybe I will have to go find another 30 mile trail race to get it right?.. blows

Have you checked into massage, PT, or chiro in your area? What about complete rest, does that do anything for you?

too hot wrote:

It’s just a matter of knowing how strong the other guy’s kick is. If he has a better kick than you, make the long push for home as JB did the second time around.

Thanks, coach! Deep wisdom as always.

Tall dark roast wrote:

runrincerepeat wrote:

Speaking of pain... RRR is trying not to get discouraged w his A$$ pain and just Cross Train like a phene ..but 2 weeks and it still hurts. Maybe I will have to go find another 30 mile trail race to get it right?.. blows

Have you checked into massage, PT, or chiro in your area? What about complete rest, does that do anything for you?

Already had a massage. Last time I beat on it pretty good (in that trail race) then took 3 days off and it healed up. This morning I did some light hill repeats and beat on it a bit.. now planning on 3-4 days no running and see what happens.

How 'bout snake handling? I can hook you up... just follow me. Or acupuncture or cupping (which is not spooning).

But, dude, really. If you need to step back, do that. You can run, you can rinse, but if you can't repeat it's not getting you anywhere.

I hear ya RRR. This running thing takes patience whether you're injured or not I suppose.

Runningforfun wrote:

I hear ya RRR. This running thing takes patience whether you're injured or not I suppose.

True.. How are you feeling? Still rolling the bike?

The Stone Cutter wrote:

Coach - I’m always glad to just hear you are still alive on a weekly basis. Your life always seems to be a National Geographic or Mutual of Omaha Wild Kingdom episode...

+1

And thanks y'all for the kind words. I'll have plenty more chances to race my friend as he tends to show up for just about everything locally. This is my first time besting him at a distance less than 10k, and I expect he'll always keep me on my toes at the shorter stuff. He's strongest from 10k and below.

Smoove, I've lost more races and more positions than I'd like to admit due to bad tactics, so it's especially sweet to execute a race plan that worked. I like your analogy. I lose more sprints than I win, so I've got to accept the long push is my friend... but it's the hard way to win. Satisfying, yes. But hard.

I'm feeling better. Yes I've been biking a little. Trying to run here and there. Started swimming last week and have gotten four swims in. My father is trying to get me to do a run/swim race next Saturday but I dont think I trust myself in taking the run portion slower than “race pace"

Deep thoughts wrote:

Thanks, coach! Deep wisdom as always.

You’re welcome. That’s precisely the point I was trying to make. It’s not rocket science nor is anything else in our sport.

Coach Jeff ROC wrote:

You can run, you can rinse, but if you can't repeat it's not getting you anywhere.

Jonathan Swift once wrote, "Proper words in proper places make the true definition of style." You write with indelible style, Coach.

Coach Jeff ROC wrote:

How 'bout snake handling? I can hook you up... just follow me. Or acupuncture or cupping (which is not spooning).

But, dude, really. If you need to step back, do that. You can run, you can rinse, but if you can't repeat it's not getting you anywhere.

I may .. I havent been running much, mostly bike and some elliptical and lifting. May take a week and just see how many miles I can bike and nothing else.

I actually think the premise is simple, but I think that, like most things in our sport, the simplicity of the premise doesn't always carry through in practice.

While as a guy with a 2:03 800m PR, I would not appear to be a raw speed guy, but I was only outkicked over the last 400m or less of a race once in college - in my third ever race in a cross country meet at Lehigh. Even if 26/55 PRs are not overwhelming, they were fast enough that I simply had better 200/400m speed than other guys at my level, and I was willing to incur the pain associated with using that speed. But I used to compete against a guy from RIT named Kevin Collins (who was top American at Boston one year and ended up running 2:15). I ended up with a better 5000m PR than he had in college, and I had far superior 200/400m speed than he did. I never, ever beat the guy. Best I ever did was finish right behind him at one of those old Reebok Grand Prix Series cross country races at Franklin Park back in grad school. He just knew when and where to push to make up for his lack of raw speed. He pushed just hard enough up Bear Cage Hill such that I did not have the willingness to suffer the pain of a full throated kick attempt when the gap was just big enough that it was not a certainty that I could reel him in, especially when already suffering from the late stage surge. When I ran my PR at 5000m. I ended up 3rd in the slow heat at Penn Relays. I ran even splits through 3200m (4:35, 4:34), then took the lead to try to control the pace. A guy from Dartmouth surged past me hard with 1000m to go, and two guys went with him. I was not ready to cover the hard surge, and they gapped me and I decided to just hold on because I was already in uncharted territory. Went through the third 1600 in 4:40 before realizing I had a shot at the guy in third and ran :30 for the last 200m picking the guy off.

So when it comes down to race tactics, I think "sit and kick if you have more speed, or take it out hard or apply an extended 800m-1200m kick if you don't have speed" is too simple of an approach. Just as Kevin was able to pick his spots on where to put some surges in on people to hamper their superior speed over the course of an 8k course, the approach can end up being much more nuanced. Understanding an opponents willingness to incur pain, their confidence level, how those things change or appear to change during races, whether they need a nice steady rhythm throughout the race to be able to unleash their kick (like I need), whether they are willing to go out at a too fast pace at the gun in order to maintain contact, etc. - all of those things play a role in how a race plays out.

I agree that we sometimes make things more complicated than they need to be, but I think the in race pain and suffering and the deal cutting that results from that pain and suffering make it much more nuanced in practice than in theory.

Fine racing, sir! Two-mile. Based on Daniels' "10-minute" definition, that's pure VO2max pace, wire-to-wire. My last two-mile race may have been 1976 ...

I am always amazed when runners ignore the tangents in road races. I always aim straight for the furthest point ahead that I can see. If the course is limited to one lane, I will run the center line on an inside curve; usually, though, the measurement certification states, "runners have use of entire road surface."

In a marathon, especially, it can make a huge difference.

Two exceptions: Into a strong headwind, I may duck behind someone, and follow their path. Second, if the route specifically requires crossing the road, and it's a hilly course, I will wait for a descent, if possible, to add that extra yardage.

Smoove wrote:

... I used to compete against a guy from RIT named Kevin Collins (who was top American at Boston one year and ended up running 2:15) ....

Did Albany compete directly against RIT when you were an undergrad? I didn't follow RIT sports after I graduated ... when I was there, they had a strong XC team, but in track, just a couple stand-out individuals.

I only ran senior year. Coach Todd actually recruited me as a highschooler, but I was unwilling to quit my job in order to do his preseason "training camp." I had a full academic scholarship, but still needed money for books, supplies, etc.

That's one of my regrets, looking back. For XC, there was a great team environment there. Not many chances in life for that kind of experience.

Allen1959

- Luckily for me my girlfriend also has similar lofty goals so it doesn't feel like a sacrifice, I spend a solid 8-9 hours at work each day and do not feel as if it has held me back at all (or vice-versa). It's easier for me to get in miles now that it was in college tbh. Hopefully the PRs are still waiting for me

Gordon Tremeshko

- Will likely try to do as stated, once or twice a week 10mi or so at sub 7 pace. Not quite sure how my weeks will look as I try to settle into 85/90+. Will likely do slower AM and faster PM.

RunGuy Midwest

Don't worry about trimming those lbs, it should come off as you get into the higher mileage of marathon training(the mileage is looking good so far). Grand Rapids is a cool city, my sister lived there for a few years(in Kalamazoo now), and a friend of mine has won that marathon a few years back.

Yes, Albany was D3 when I was there, so we were in one of the same conferences as them - NYSCTF or something like that - and we were in the same region for XC regionals. So between our home XC invitational that RIT attended XC regionals and nationals, we would see them 4 times a season in cross country and once or twice a year in each of indoor and outdoor.

Coach Todd is a legend, but I also got the sense that he may have broken some eggs while making some omelets, because those guys were doing tremendous volume and some pretty intense workouts.

Smoove, I think what you are calling nuance I call plain old racing. Keep to an honest pace, choose your spot wisely creating that gap well before 400m to go. If you're a kicker, pray that you'll get the chance to show it.

As evidence of how good Coach Todd was, I think during my 4 years at Albany, I overlapped with at least 5 guys who ran sub 15:00 for the 5000m, including a 14:20s and maybe two 14:30s guys, and I think two of those guys went sub 30:00 for the 10,000m.

While that is not impressive to the former D1 athletes that may peruse this thread, I would note that this was not only a D3 school, but it was a private D3 engineering school, so even though it was a large school, it was appealing to a limited number of people in the first place, and it was expensive on top of that (although they may also have had more money to provide athletes with academic based aid). They would have been a force at D3 nationals, but they never seemed to have more than three high end guys at the same time.

Smoove wrote:

They would have been a force at D3 nationals, but they never seemed to have more than three high end guys at the same time.

Yeah, that was the case, also, when I was there. With a couple of reasonably-talented guys running 4th and 5th, that can still add up to a decent XC team, regionally.

Funny you mention Coach Todd's training, because in my "regret"post I almost added the caveat "IF I could have held up through the massive mileage."

100-plus-mile weeks during the off-season. For winter break, they would head to Florida for two weeks and run 20-milers EVERY day.