Ben Bruce tries out for Worlds at USA Mountain Champs - Ends up eating a big fat slice of "humble pie" as Joe Gray and Allie McL

derp wrote:

zzzz wrote:

Here's a training article about Norris from a couple years ago:

thank's for all the info about APU, interesting, i had no idea!

I remember Kikkan back from when she was running cross country in high school, (for East I think?), but have been out of the state for years, so out of the loop.

Norris was a pretty good high school runner (as a sophomore he was all state XC and ran mid-low4:30s 1600 off a month of training in the cold and snowy Alaskan spring). But focused on skiing after that and started winning junior national championship medals and since has only done mountain races and not all that frequently. Randall held the state record for the 1600 for a long time.

You can get your own thread when you accomplish something of note.

rojo wrote:

reed wrote:

Ben is going to get destroyed, hands down.

Joe Grey is there, and although Ben has run about 9 seconds faster over 10,000m, Joe will beat him by probably 5 minutes in this race. At least.

You nailed it. I'm amazed by your post. He won by like what 5:36. You must reallyunderstand trail running. I'd love to see Kipchoge or someone try one of these things or an ultra. People just assume he'd dominate. Do we know that's really true? What do you think since you seem to know what you are talking about?

Finally rojo gives me the credit I deserve...jk

Well basically, I knew that Ben did very little actual hill running to prep for this. He basically trained for the steeple, didn't make USAs after running 9:01 (with a fall) so did the 10k instead at USAs. At some point he probably thought, hey, I'll hop into the USATF mountain champs, because it has no downhill and should favor the strongest/fastest runners. I saw on an instagram post that Ben did a 3mi "uphill" tempo in ~17:00, gaining only around 300'. That's an average grade of around 1.9%. A trail runner calls that a flat road. The Loon Mt race gains 2900' or so in 10k, and there's even some downhill so the average grade is just 9% or so.

As for the Kipchoge vs trailrunning thing, I went into detail on this in one of the Western States threads, but I think Kipchoge would get his butt whooped by top trailrunners, hands down. Even with a few months to train. If you put Kipchoge in Comrades (about 55mi road race, hilly but not that hilly), I don't think he'd even win that unless you give him a couple tries or maybe 6-12 months prep time.

If you compare Kipchoge's 2:03 with the 2:10-2:15 that top trailrunners can run, it's just not that much faster. I'm about a 2:30 marathoner and I get my butt kicked by 2:40 marathoners in ultras from time to time. When the race you're doing will only average 8 or 9 minutes a mile, it suddenly doesn't matter so much how easy you can run a 4:30 mile. What's important is mainly that you can run a ton of up and downhills and still have the energy left at the end of the race. You have to be durable and your legs need way more specific strength, especially in races that last over 6 hours or so.

Bob Graham wrote:

I feel like you're the reason all these track guys don't respect us trail runners on the boards.

I don't understand...all I said was that Ben would get his butt kicked...and then he did. I think people will have more respect for MUT runners (mountain/ultra/trail) after this race.

These debates are what I love about mountain races! When I heard Ben was racing Loon I said “I wouldn’t be surprised if he won but wouldn’t be surprised if he was outside the top 10 either way I give Ben credit for coming”

Most years there are a few newcomers to the mountain sceen and even the most experienced MUT runners can’t always predict right. (I remember when Sage was that newcomer at Mt Washington and we got to guess how he would do and let he set the AR). Sometimes they get it right other times they don’t but regardless it’s good for the sport.

Anyways the reason for my post is someone asked why the USATF mountain Champs are usaually in New Hampshire......I believe 2 reasons....

1) the LOCs do a great job hosting the event

2) not many other races bid on the Championships

I believe Alberto Salazar when he says Kipchoge would win both the up and down and set course records by over 20-min each way at Comrades. It's a marathoner's dream.

What do you do to be ready for mountain races? You're still coaching at CCSU, right? New Britain isn't exactly in the heart of the mountains.

Yes that’s correct. It’s very possible to train for these types of races living at sea level. First there is a large trail system a mile from my house in that being the West Hartford Resevoir. All you really need is a place that has decent hills. Also I do a lot of incline treadmill runs about once a week that range from 8-15%. Lastly I have an altitude generator and mask which is important if I’m doing an altitude race such as Pikes peak or even helps for the last few miles at Mt Washington. I use it at night and a few hours a week I spin on a bike with my mask and bring down my oxgen saturation.

You didn't say anything that wasn't true, and that's no disrespect to track/road guys, it's just facts. It doesn't take a PHD to figure out what these boards blatantly disregard. Bruce is a great runner, versatile and not afraid to mix it up, which for some odd reason isn't celebrated more often in sport. Hopefully that changes in time. I can't comprehend why runners from different specializations don't get the deserved respect. You don't see this with sprinters vs 10k guys in this same argument, but as soon as the boards bring up Walmsley or some elite ultra guys, the slamming and ignorance creeps to epic proportions.

Could elite road/track guys transition to big time climbers in the ultra scene if given a few years to develop? Maybe, but then again, maybe not. Max King, probably one of the most versatile runners on planet earth, from what I've read and listened to has swore off 100s, it's just another level of craziness that even his 2:14 speed can't power through. A guy like Rob Krar who was a 1500m runner in college transitioned better to the longer distance. Sage has death marched in every 100 he's raced, and others alike who have attempted, every race requires a different level of strength.

I would love to see Bruce and others train specifically for the trails and sign up for some west coast 50ks. Like a Chuckanut, or Way too Cool, I think it would be amazing for the sport of running. Then again, there's no guarantee everybody would transition well. Moral of my rant, respect the distance and terrain, something all too often forgotten easily here.

Thanks.

reed wrote:

I think people will have more respect for MUT runners (mountain/ultra/trail) after this race.

Why?

It's like Peter Sagan is a beast in sprints and flat stages in cycling but can't hang on climbs in the Alps.

Mt southington near by... Keep going northeast and the hills grow.. ski sundown,. Mohawk. Proud to be from hard hitting myself and to have a top runner come from there :)

Everybody likes the Max King + Sage Canaday examples, but there are plenty of others. Sage wasn't even very fast in college, he basically ran one good half and one good marathon before he switched to trails in ~2012.

There's Andy Wacker, Pat Smyth, Cole Watson off the top of my head. These guys can all run fast 50ks but haven't really been proven at distances over 50k or in the real mountains. Andy Wacker does all kinds of races but doesn't do many ultras so he can race a lot and travel a lot. Seems like he's got a good setup for a 13:40s guy.