Agreed.
Agreed.
aduck2022 wrote:
what did i just read ,
hope it is satire
steroids are of no use to middle distance , think again .
and out of competition testing when ., exactly when .
both cram and coe clearly doped
and if cant see this then so be it .
look at the times ,
then and now ,end of story .
I never said that steroids are of no use to middle distance runners. I said that the consensus in the early 80's was that they were of little or no use in 800/1500m. We have learnt since that they can be of use.
Random out of competition testing of UK athletes by the BAAB started in the 1986 season. Random testing by IAAF at top level competitions began in 1977.
Blood doping banned in 1985 after report published by Moynihan and Coe.
1987 - as head of Sports Council in UK, "Seminal report, Drugs in Sport, put together by Sebastian Coe, Olympic athlete,
which laid the foundations for random, unannounced, out-of-competition drugs
testing (to which he himself was subject only a few months later). "
https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200304/cmselect/cmcumeds/499/499.pdfThis was a report that covered many sports in the UK.
1989 - IAAF introduces random out of competition testing for world's elites.
Thus Coe and co were tested at international events from '77, had to submit drug tests for all world records, were tested in competitions in Britain from early 80's, had random out of competition testing from 1986 by the BAAB and OOC testing by the IAAF in 1989. So while testing was not as thorough as it is now, which is called evolution!, the idea that there was no testing in Coe's era is nonsense.
The contemporary consensus in the late 70's/early 80's was that steroids would benefit all power events, namely sprints and throwing. And which events were the GDR and USSR ahead of western Europe? The sprints and field events.
Any testing at the time outside of WRs and major champs would have been down to the procedures in place by the national federations and some promoters on the circuit in western Europe. The latter fact explains why most of the East Europeans best marks occurred in their own countries or at least behind the Iron Curtain. We now know that the Russians have a long, ingrained ethos of covering up and protecting their athletes from testing.
At the same time steroids, namely testosterone, was known to make a massive difference in the performances of female athletes in all events, as it made them more male like. Who dominated practically every women's events? The GDR and USSR! No British or Western European female could compete in any event.
The consensus at the time was also that steroids did not benefit male middle distance and distance runners. Yes, with hindsight we know there are some benefits, but these were not known at the time. In this area, the middle and long distances, Britain had a tradition of success, much greater than they did in the USSR and the GDR. A group of British athletes started to dominate Europe, especially in the middle distances.
Now, if this was down to use of steroids, then 2 fundamental questions need to be addressed.
1) Why were UK women and UK men in power events so far behind the East Europeans? This strongly suggests that the UK athletes, in general, were not using steroids and therefore could not keep up with those we now know were using them.
Is it a plausible argument that most UK athletes didn't use steroids, but that all our middle distance guys did? I think not.
2) If the UK's middle distance guys were using steroids, and we know that the East European men either were (Stasi lists subsequently found listed Beyer, etc), or would not have been averse to at least experimenting in an area where steroids were not considered particularly beneficial, then why were the Russian and German athletes not equally dominant in the 800 and 1500, as their female contemporaries and bulky throwing brothers were?
The most logical answer is that none of them were using steroids. Furthermore, we know that plenty of sprinters and throwers from the era were found guilty at the time or soon after of doping, but how many elite middle distance or distance runners were caught and banned for steroid use in that period. The only few I can recall were East European women; e.g Petrova, Kazankina.
In addition, the likes of Walker, Coghlan, Wessinghage, Scott, etc, are all on record as saying that they did not believe Coe or Ovett doped, or indeed any other of their peers.
Apart from the obvious physical signs of HGH use, namely increased jaw, movement of teeth, none of which can be attributed to Coe, Ovett or Cram, it was only developed as a recombinant HGH injection in late 1981, after Coe's best years had already occurred. Moreover, Wikipedia states, "The first description of the use of GH as a doping agent was Dan Duchaine’s “Underground Steroid handbook” which emerged from California in 1982"
With regards to blood doping. The only athlete to have been caught doing so (IIRC), but only because he had traces of steroids in his blood when taken from his body, was Vainio in 84. This came after there had already been long standing whispering that it was a technique used by many of the Finnish DISTANCE runners. IIRC one other has subsequently admitted to its practise. We also have had a few Italian DISTANCE runners come forward and admit to using autologous blood doping during the 80's. These were all 5 and 10k guys. Whats more, Renato Canova has mentioned this in some of his own posts, stating that there appeared to be no benefits for some and only marginal gains for others. Indeed, one or two actually became slower.
Whatever the benefits of blood doping, and I'm sure there are for endurance events, it was a somewhat risky and dangerous procedure, and one that the only evidence of its use comes from 2 federation approved regimes; Italy and Finland. There is no other evidence, claim or story of any athlete outside of these countries using, and there is certainly no cases of 800 or 1500m runners using blood doping. Therefore there is no evidence of whether or not it would even benefit an event like 800m, which is as much anaerobic as aerobic. Coe led the way for blood doping to be made illegal in 1985. His fastest 1500m time, more endurance based than 800, came after, in 1986.
To summarise, Coe showed no physical evidence of steroid use, in fact losing racing weight over the duration of his career, was tested more often than any other athlete from the period, much of which was overseen by the agent of his main rival, Andy Norman. He would have been part of the worldwide IAAF testing programme in 89, a year in which he was still running 1:43.3 and winning a silver medal in the 1500 World Cup.
HGH didn't exist as a PED until the end of 81, after Coe had run most of his best races and times.
Blood doping has no historical record of being used by 800/1500 runners, and the only evidence of its use is with a few Italian and Finnish distance runners.
As a former British MP and as a high profile politician and head of the IAAF, there would have been more scrutiny of Coe's record as an athlete by the British and world press than perhaps any other figure in sport. If he had taken steroids, HGH or blood doped, there would have been many people privy to this information, yet no evidence has emerged in almost 40 years since his racing heyday. The logical conclusion to all the above evidence is that he did not take any PEDS or indulge in blood doping.
You are entitled to your opinion, but there just isn't any evidence to support your claim that "Coe and Cram clearly doped". Without evidence it is just speculation.
Wrong! Try more like ~66% aerobic power for the 800 - far from being "as much anaerobic as aerobic."
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11194103http://bookofrunning.com/800m/how-anaerobic-is-the-800m/Deanouk wrote:
Both set WRs and won medals, which would require drug testing for ratification. Both were tested out of competition by UK Athletics from the early 80’s, and would have been 2 of the most tested athletes in the world during their time.
Ok. You guys are kidding, thought so. He never tested positive, he was the most tested, ... very convincing, hihi.
Continue please, this is hilarious.
Stephanie Graf (not the one married to Andre) was banned retrospectively for blood transfusions.
http://www.espn.com/olympics/trackandfield/news/story?id=5315262
In another comical excuse, "Graf has said she had blood taken at the Humanplasma lab in 2003 but denies it was re-injected." This belongs up there with passionate kissing and tainted steaks.
It would be interesting to see all Coe's performances but his average season didn't smell of blood doping.
1:41 in 81. Sans rabbit on a slow track. Now we think it's great if one is pulled to a 1:43, with 2018 spikes on a specialised track. Yes, nothing to see here.
kidding much? wrote:
Deanouk wrote:
Both set WRs and won medals, which would require drug testing for ratification. Both were tested out of competition by UK Athletics from the early 80’s, and would have been 2 of the most tested athletes in the world during their time.
Ok. You guys are kidding, thought so. He never tested positive, he was the most tested, ... very convincing, hihi.
Continue please, this is hilarious.
Some people foolishy believe in a 100% detection rate for anti-doping. Lol.
had to be said wrote:
1:41 in 81. Sans rabbit on a slow track. Now we think it's great if one is pulled to a 1:43, with 2018 spikes on a specialised track. Yes, nothing to see here.
Oh yeah, I forgot, Coe was white and fast and ran faster than most Kenyans are still running today. That proves he was doped to the gills.
Subway Surfers wrote:
Stephanie Graf (not the one married to Andre) was banned retrospectively for blood transfusions.
http://www.espn.com/olympics/trackandfield/news/story?id=5315262In another comical excuse, "Graf has said she had blood taken at the Humanplasma lab in 2003 but denies it was re-injected." This belongs up there with passionate kissing and tainted steaks.
They (WADA) were still investigating the Vienna lab in 2012. Don't know what became of them, or if they are still ongoing. Interesting that this type of blood doping was taking place in the era of EPO.
http://aroundtherings.com/site/A__25654/Title__New-Blood-Doping-Scandal-Fahey-Speaks-Out-Gusmao-Troubles/292/Articleskidding much? wrote:
Deanouk wrote:
Both set WRs and won medals, which would require drug testing for ratification. Both were tested out of competition by UK Athletics from the early 80’s, and would have been 2 of the most tested athletes in the world during their time.
Ok. You guys are kidding, thought so. He never tested positive, he was the most tested, ... very convincing, hihi.
Continue please, this is hilarious.
Wow! Great comeback. Lots of evidence there! Lol.
You offer nothing but speculation. Basically, anyone can claim, as you have, that any elite sportsman or sportswoman ever must have doped.
Stick to the context, as I have done.
In the late 70’s, during the era when the subject matter I am referring to was training and running, the coaches of the day believed that 800m was 50:50 in terms of aerobic to anaerobic training. Whatever has come to light after Coe is irrelevant.
quote]had to be said wrote:
1:41 in 81. Sans rabbit on a slow track. Now we think it's great if one is pulled to a 1:43, with 2018 spikes on a specialised track. Yes, nothing to see here.[/quote]
But we are talking about blood doping, the reinfusion part gave a spike in performance and you could fairly claim this for his 1:41.7 in early June but the problem was he was running just as well into September over a multitude of distances. Now there were other more blatantly obvious examples of blood doping back then of runners who had three weeks of superb performances only to be rubbish later in the season and never get near those times ever again. I have very little doubt that many of our heroes from yesteryear were probably addicted to pain killers/anti-inflammatories in such away that would make the TUE scandal look 'but a triffle.' Remember though, in America and Britain, people talk and there is always alot more to be made selling people out.
Coevett wrote:
Interesting that this type of blood doping was taking place in the era of EPO.
http://aroundtherings.com/site/A__25654/Title__New-Blood-Doping-Scandal-Fahey-Speaks-Out-Gusmao-Troubles/292/Articles
Could have been really high quality blood and I'm pretty sure that this was after early epo testing came in.
Deanuk and Coevett, I think Coe, Cram and Ovett were clean, and I fully agree with your analysis.
This said, one question : why do you use two different meters for the great British runners of the past, and for the great Kenyan runners of the present (some of them is weaker than the Kenyans of 20 years ago) ?
If you say people thinks Coe and Cram doped "because are white and British", why you think ALL KENYANS running under 3'30" (or 3'33", like Mindweak) MUST be doped, without knowing ANYTHING about the INDIVIDUALS you are speaking about ?
Like every activity in the life, to train, to be serious, to have continuity, to have professionalism, is a personal choice, exactly like NOT to train (also if you have a lot of talent, case of Curtis Robb and David Sharpe), NOT to be serious, NOT to have continuity, and, maybe, TO TRY TO DOPE.
W, in any sporthat I can't accept is the generalization, like the fact ALL the results of Kenyans and Ethiopians are due to doping only (like a clean athlete at the top can't exist). Since I coached, and I coach, some of the WR holders and also some athlete at the moment number one in the World (Erick Kiptanui in HM), who only one year ago NEVER ran some distance longer than 1500m, I well know that the possibilities of athletes with high talent are very much different from what western people normally think.
For these reasons I will fight forever against people thinking the "fuel" for top times is doping. Also if I know somebody decides to dope, thinking to have real advantages, I know FOR SURE that the most part of top athletes, Kenyan and Ethiopian, look at training only and never used anything illegal. Don't transfer on Timothy Cheruiyot, or Elijah Manangoi, or Ronald Kwemoi, the hypothetical fault of Asbel Kiprop. Don't transfer on Mary Keitany or Vivian Cheruiyot the REAL fault of Rita Jeptoo and Jemima Sumgong. And, more, don't transfer to ALL the career of an athlete the mentality to cheat that he developed at some point of his career. I'm the first proposing to cancel, in case of doping, ALL THE RESULTS FROM THE BEGINNING OF THE CAREER, but this as deterrent based on ethical reasons, not because I think the athlete doped from his beginning.
And, last thing, I fully agree with everybody thinking the solution for antidoping is to reduce the list of banned substances, without adding a lot of medicine that don't have any effect on any kind of performance, in any sport.
Maybe you don't understand the difficult life of an athlete in the whereabout system today : he can't take any simple medicine for any reason when is a little sick (for example, some flu), because in the most part of medicine that doctors give to everybody of us there is something that can be considered "doping", also if in quantity so small that can't change the performance of 1/100 of second of 1 cm. We needed the case of Froome for understanding something clear from long time to everybody works with the athletes at top level. Too complicated rules, the most part useless because looking at substances not able to change a performance, can create room of cheating in "scientific way" if you have some scientific equipe behind you, and at the same time can provoke bans of years for clean athletes who did a little mistake, due to the ignorance of some doctor or pharmacist about the substances "doping", something that can happen in the normal life.
Moe simple, more clear. More clear, working better. And, in this case, increase the duration of the bans, and cancel ALL the career of an athlete, because, if the rules are simple and clear, we reduce the possibility of mistake, and can be sure about the full voluntary of doping for the positive athletes.
Coevett wrote:
had to be said wrote:
1:41 in 81. Sans rabbit on a slow track. Now we think it's great if one is pulled to a 1:43, with 2018 spikes on a specialised track. Yes, nothing to see here.
Oh yeah, I forgot, Coe was white and fast and ran faster than most Kenyans are still running today. That proves he was doped to the gills.
Well I mean, by your own theory that all Kenyans are dopers then it would mean that, yes.
If there was some guy from Morocco who ran the 800m in 1:41 solo in 1981 then people (including yourself) here would just assume he's dirty and talk about the 'clean world record' belonging to someone else without any further evidence about the individual. It's wrong.
I don't know if Coe was doping, I find his achievements a bit unbelievable running that fast being so ahead of his time. I'd like to believe he was clean. However nor do I think every Kenyan is doping. This doping thing has nothing to do with skin colour, I'm not sure why people here always try and make it about race.
This is stupid Deanouk. Some distance runners use low-dose androgens and not the heavy dose, multiple-roid use that you see with bodybuilders & powerlifters. Distance runners aren't interested in adding bulk & weight but use them for enhanced recovery, and in some cases injury rehab. Here's a few notables from distance running who tested positive for androgens:
Dieter Baumann/LD (Nandrolone)
Giuliano Battiocletti/Marathon (Nandrolone)
Julio Rey/Marathon (Mesterolone)
Mathew Kisorio/Marathon (undisclosed AAS)
Mostafa Errebbah/LD (Stanozolol)
Martti Vainio/LD (Testosterone)
Hassan Mourhit/LD (Anastrozol)
Ali Saïdi-Sief/LD (Nandrolone)
Now tell me that these guys showed "physical evidence of steroid use." C'mon man....Kisorio? He's a stick man. Rey? He's a diminutive pocket rocket. Baumann? Please...I was looking at some old photos of Baumann in his prime with his long blond locks and I thought I was looking at Ed Whitlock!...Baumann was skin & bones back in the day!
So, just because a distance runner doesn't look like the typical steroid user doesn't mean they're not using low-dose androgens for recovery as shown by those examples above.
had to be said wrote:
1:41 in 81. Sans rabbit on a slow track. Now we think it's great if one is pulled to a 1:43, with 2018 spikes on a specialised track. Yes, nothing to see here.
He did have a rabbit in that race, from 200 to 400m.
The reason he could run a 1:41 is because he had 46 400m speed and the endurance to run sub 3:30 over 1500m; not to mention winning British titles over 3000m.
Which of the current 1:43 runners can match those sort of times at the shorter and longer distances? You have the likes of Korir running 44’s but no recognised 1500 ability, or someone like Soulieman who can run a 3:29 but hasn’t great 400 speed. Coe was unique in having that combination. That is why his 800 and 1000 records lasted so long.
If an unknown Moroccan came along in 81 and ran 1:41, then yes, I would be suspect too, and would expect to see a lot more over a long period/career to back up such talent.
My suspicion would be nothing to do with skin colour, but rather be raised due to him coming from a country with a poor record of doping in men’s middle distance events, and one which I would want to be reassured was undertaking some form of testing.
Coe’s 1:41 came after several years of increasingly good to great performances. British record and European indoor champ in 77, another British record and European bronze in 78, World records and European Cup gold in 79, Olympic medals in 80, etc. His 1:41.7 was not that unexpected from someone who had already run 1:42.3 two seasons before. Furthermore, his talent continued to show for another 8 seasons, and ended at a time where testing was far more robust and frequent.
Coevett wrote:
Subway Surfers wrote:
Stephanie Graf (not the one married to Andre) was banned retrospectively for blood transfusions.
http://www.espn.com/olympics/trackandfield/news/story?id=5315262In another comical excuse, "Graf has said she had blood taken at the Humanplasma lab in 2003 but denies it was re-injected." This belongs up there with passionate kissing and tainted steaks.
They (WADA) were still investigating the Vienna lab in 2012. Don't know what became of them, or if they are still ongoing. Interesting that this type of blood doping was taking place in the era of EPO.
Those first EPO pops in 2002 got some runners nervous and encourage the switch to blood doping. In 03, the first women distance & mid-d runners were bagged for EPO use; Asmae Leghzaoui, Maria Tsirba & Pamela Chepchumba (Chepchumba holds the distinction of being the first Kenyan female banned for EPO use).
These female pops certainly must have gotten female EPO users concerned and blood doping would be the choice of some with the guarantee of never testing positive and being able to dope right through competition. And the EPO test opened the door for doctors like Fuentes to start blood transfusions clinics and laugh all the way to the bank.