Timothy Cheruiyot runs 3:29 FTW in Paris!!

Exactly what you’d expect from a country whose domestic races are at 7k altitude.

stateezee wrote:

Exactly what you’d expect from a country whose domestic races are at 7k altitude.

Well it might play a small part, but it's surely not 'exactly what you'd expect'. Nairobi, the capital, is at 1.7K altitude, and I'm pretty sure 3:37 capable runners are able to get a few races there if not in Europe. If it was that simple, those Italian and Irish coaches aren't as good as they claim if they can't find the 3:36 guys running 3:41 in El Doret.

Also doesn't explain Moroccans.

Coevett wrote:

TBH

Some rarity...

Coevett wrote:

stateezee wrote:

Exactly what you’d expect from a country whose domestic races are at 7k altitude.

Well it might play a small part, but it's surely not 'exactly what you'd expect'. Nairobi, the capital, is at 1.7K altitude, and I'm pretty sure 3:37 capable runners are able to get a few races there if not in Europe. If it was that simple, those Italian and Irish coaches aren't as good as they claim if they can't find the 3:36 guys running 3:41 in El Doret.

Also doesn't explain Moroccans.

A small part? 16 of the 25 Americans under 3:40 did so domestically, including #s 16-25.

You've got to be kidding me!?! No Americans have run under 3:35 while 5 have from Kenya have and 2 from a small country like Morroco? And I don't know if you're aware yet, but Brahim Kaazouzi of Morroco won the 15 today at Rabat running a PB of 3:33.22.

With all the American up & coming young talent, the finest training facilities, great coaches, the best nutritional science, etc. - and we can't even get one guy to run under 3:35? Sad...very sad. ?

It'll be interesting to get rekrunner's analysis of this when he makes his daily rounds early tomorrow morning. He should have some some talking points on this perplexing issue.

Top hundred marathon times:

RANK MARK COMPETITOR DOB NAT POS VENUE DATE

1 2:04:00 Mosinet GEREMEW 12 FEB 1992 ETH ETH 1 Dubai (UAE) 26 JAN 2018

2 2:04:02 Leule GEBRSELASSIE 20 SEP 1993 ETH ETH 2 Dubai (UAE) 26 JAN 2018

3 2:04:06 Tamirat TOLA 11 AUG 1991 ETH ETH 3 Dubai (UAE) 26 JAN 2018

3 2:04:06 Asefa MENGSTU 18 JAN 1985 ETH ETH 4 Dubai (UAE) 26 JAN 2018

5 2:04:08 Sisay LEMMA 12 DEC 1990 ETH ETH 5 Dubai (UAE) 26 JAN 2018

6 2:04:15 Birhanu LEGESE 11 SEP 1994 ETH ETH 6 Dubai (UAE) 26 JAN 2018

7 2:04:17 Eliud KIPCHOGE 05 NOV 1984 KEN KEN 1 London (GBR) 22 APR 2018

8 2:04:44 Seyefu TURA 1997 ETH ETH 7 Dubai (UAE) 26 JAN 2018

9 2:04:49 Tola SHURA KITATA 09 JUN 1996 ETH ETH 2 London (GBR) 22 APR 2018

10 2:05:30 Dickson CHUMBA 27 OCT 1986 KEN KEN 1 Tokyo (JPN) 25 FEB 2018

11 2:05:44 Kenneth Kiprop KIPKEMOI 02 AUG 1984 KEN KEN 1 Rotterdam (NED) 08 APR 2018

12 2:05:50 Abera KUMA 31 AUG 1990 ETH ETH 2 Rotterdam (NED) 08 APR 2018

13 2:05:56 Kelkile GEZAHEGN ETH ETH 3 Rotterdam (NED) 08 APR 2018

14 2:05:58 Laban KORIR 30 DEC 1985 KEN KEN 4 Rotterdam (NED) 08 APR 2018

15 2:06:07 Galen RUPP 08 MAY 1986 USA USA 1 Praha (CZE) 06 MAY 2018

16 2:06:11 Yuta SHITARA 18 DEC 1991 JPN JPN 2 Tokyo (JPN) 25 FEB 2018

17 2:06:21 Mo FARAH 23 MAR 1983 GBR GBR 3 London (GBR) 22 APR 2018

18 2:06:25 Paul LONYANGATA 12 DEC 1992 KEN KEN 1 Paris (FRA) 08 APR 2018

19 2:06:29 Abraham KIPTUM 1989 KEN KEN 1 Daegu (KOR) 01 APR 2018

20 2:06:33 Amos KIPRUTO 16 SEP 1992 KEN KEN 3 Tokyo (JPN) 25 FEB 2018

21 2:06:34 Soloman DEKSISA 11 MAR 1994 ETH ETH 1 Hamburg (GER) 29 APR 2018

22 2:06:35 Evans KORIR 1987 KEN KEN 2 Daegu (KOR) 01 APR 2018

23 2:06:36 Matthew Kipkoech KISORIO 16 MAY 1989 KEN KEN 2 Paris (FRA) 08 APR 2018

24 2:06:41 Ernest NGENO 20 MAY 1995 KEN KEN 3 Paris (FRA) 08 APR 2018

25 2:06:47 Gideon Kipkemoi KIPKETER 10 NOV 1992 KEN KEN 4 Tokyo (JPN) 25 FEB 2018

26 2:06:49 Peter Kimeli SOME 05 JUN 1990 KEN KEN 3 Daegu (KOR) 01 APR 2018

27 2:06:54 Hiroto INOUE 06 JAN 1993 JPN JPN 5 Tokyo (JPN) 25 FEB 2018

27 2:06:54 Deme Tadu ABATE 11 SEP 1997 ETH ETH 2 Hamburg (GER) 29 APR 2018

29 2:06:57 Wilson Loyanae ERUPE 20 NOV 1988 KEN KEN 1 Seoul (KOR) 18 MAR 2018

30 2:07:00 Yitayal Atnafu ZERIHUN 20 JAN 1993 ETH ETH 4 Paris (FRA) 08 APR 2018

31 2:07:03 Mark KORIR 10 JAN 1985 KEN KEN 2 Seoul (KOR) 18 MAR 2018

31 2:07:03 Sisay LEMMA 12 DEC 1990 ETH ETH 2 Praha (CZE) 06 MAY 2018

33 2:07:07 Abel KIRUI 04 JUN 1982 KEN KEN 4 London (GBR) 22 APR 2018

34 2:07:11 Benson KIPRUTO 1991 KEN KEN 3 Seoul (KOR) 18 MAR 2018

35 2:07:19 Ayele ABSHERO 28 DEC 1990 ETH ETH 3 Hamburg (GER) 29 APR 2018

36 2:07:22 Marius KIPSEREM 17 MAY 1988 KEN KEN 5 Rotterdam (NED) 08 APR 2018

37 2:07:30 Feyisa LILESA 01 FEB 1990 ETH ETH 6 Tokyo (JPN) 25 FEB 2018

38 2:07:37 Yego Solomon KIRWA 10 MAY 1987 KEN KEN 4 Hamburg (GER) 29 APR 2018

39 2:07:45 Marius KIMUTAI KEN KEN 4 Seoul (KOR) 18 MAR 2018

40 2:07:50 Elisha KIPCHIRCHIR 1990 KEN KEN 4 Daegu (KOR) 01 APR 2018

41 2:07:53 Macharia NDIRANGU 09 SEP 1994 KEN KEN 1 Otsu (JPN) 04 MAR 2018

42 2:07:57 Felix KIPROTICH 1988 KEN KEN 5 Seoul (KOR) 18 MAR 2018

42 2:07:57 Stephen KIPROTICH 27 FEB 1989 UGA UGA 5 Hamburg (GER) 29 APR 2018

44 2:08:03 Jarius BIRECH 21 MAR 1986 KEN KEN 1 Roma (ITA) 08 APR 2018

45 2:08:08 Ryo KINAME 22 JAN 1991 JPN JPN 7 Tokyo (JPN) 25 FEB 2018

45 2:08:08 Anthony MARITIM 12 NOV 1986 KEN KEN 1 Barcelona (ESP) 11 MAR 2018

47 2:08:13 Mule WASIHUN 20 OCT 1993 ETH ETH 6 Rotterdam (NED) 08 APR 2018

48 2:08:17 Albert KORIR 02 MAR 1994 KEN KEN 2 Otsu (JPN) 04 MAR 2018

49 2:08:20 Eliud KIPTANUI 06 JUN 1989 KEN KEN 5 Paris (FRA) 08 APR 2018

50 2:08:22 Dickson TUWEI 31 OCT 1992 KEN KEN 1 Sevilla (ESP) 25 FEB 2018

51 2:08:23 Laban MUTAI 1985 KEN KEN 2 Sevilla (ESP) 25 FEB 2018

52 2:08:26 Jake ROBERTSON 14 NOV 1989 NZL NZL 3 Otsu (JPN) 04 MAR 2018

52 2:08:26 Silas TOO 1988 KEN KEN 2 Barcelona (ESP) 11 MAR 2018

54 2:08:30 Bazu WORKU HAYLA 15 SEP 1990 ETH ETH 1 Houston, TX (USA) 14 JAN 2018

55 2:08:31 Martin KIPRUGUT KOSGEY 21 MAR 1989 KEN KEN 6 Paris (FRA) 08 APR 2018

56 2:08:32 Andrew KIMUTAI 12 AUG 1989 KEN KEN 3 Sevilla (ESP) 25 FEB 2018

56 2:08:32 Abdi Ibrahim ABDO 24 APR 1997 BRN BRN 2 Roma (ITA) 08 APR 2018

58 2:08:33 Al Mahjoub DAZZA 03 MAR 1991 MAR MAR 5 Daegu (KOR) 01 APR 2018

59 2:08:34 Bedan KAROKI 21 AUG 1990 KEN KEN 5 London (GBR) 22 APR 2018

60 2:08:36 Javier GUERRA 10 NOV 1983 ESP ESP 4 Sevilla (ESP) 25 FEB 2018

61 2:08:43 Douglas CHEBII 01 NOV 1993 KEN KEN 5 Sevilla (ESP) 25 FEB 2018

61 2:08:43 Saïd AÏT ADDI 29 JUN 1982 MAR MAR 6 Seoul (KOR) 18 MAR 2018

63 2:08:45 Chihiro MIYAWAKI 28 AUG 1991 JPN JPN 8 Tokyo (JPN) 25 FEB 2018

64 2:08:48 Kenji YAMAMOTO 17 NOV 1989 JPN JPN 9 Tokyo (JPN) 25 FEB 2018

64 2:08:48 Kiprotich KIRUI 22 DEC 1984 KEN KEN 7 Paris (FRA) 08 APR 2018

66 2:08:51 Deriba ROBI 26 SEP 1990 ETH ETH 7 Seoul (KOR) 18 MAR 2018

67 2:08:52 Yemane ADHANE TSEGAY 08 APR 1985 ETH ETH 1 Ottawa (CAN) 27 MAY 2018

68 2:08:53 Hillary KIPSAMBU 1985 KEN KEN 3 Barcelona (ESP) 11 MAR 2018

68 2:08:53 Paul Kipkorir KIPKEMBOI 31 MAY 1982 KEN KEN 8 Seoul (KOR) 18 MAR 2018

68 2:08:53 Kenenisa BEKELE 13 JUN 1982 ETH ETH 6 London (GBR) 22 APR 2018

71 2:08:55 Thomas KIPLAGAT 1987 KEN KEN 8 Paris (FRA) 08 APR 2018

72 2:08:56 Yenew ALAMIREW 27 MAY 1990 ETH ETH 8 Dubai (UAE) 26 JAN 2018

73 2:08:58 Yuki SATO 26 NOV 1986 JPN JPN 10 Tokyo (JPN) 25 FEB 2018

74 2:09:04 Seyefu TURA 1997 ETH ETH 1 Milano (ITA) 08 APR 2018

75 2:09:06 Asbel KIPSANG 1993 KEN KEN 9 Paris (FRA) 08 APR 2018

76 2:09:07 Yitayal Atnafu ZERIHUN 20 JAN 1993 ETH ETH 2 Houston, TX (USA) 14 JAN 2018

77 2:09:14 John KIPKOSGEI KEN KEN 2 Ottawa (CAN) 27 MAY 2018

78 2:09:18 Mohamed REDA EL AARABY 12 NOV 1989 MAR MAR 11 Tokyo (JPN) 25 FEB 2018

79 2:09:20 Mekuant Ayenew GEBRE 1991 ETH ETH 9 Dubai (UAE) 26 JAN 2018

79 2:09:20 Paul KIOS KANGOGO KEN KEN 3 Roma (ITA) 08 APR 2018

81 2:09:21 Michel GITHAE 26 AUG 1994 KEN KEN 4 Otsu (JPN) 04 MAR 2018

82 2:09:25 Tariku KINFU ETH ETH 4 Barcelona (ESP) 11 MAR 2018

82 2:09:25 Tsegaye KEBEDE 15 JAN 1987 ETH ETH 5 Barcelona (ESP) 11 MAR 2018

82 2:09:25 Lawrence CHERONO 07 AUG 1988 KEN KEN 7 London (GBR) 22 APR 2018

85 2:09:26 Tsedat Abege AYANA 18 FEB 1996 ETH ETH 6 Barcelona (ESP) 11 MAR 2018

85 2:09:26 Adugna TAKELE BIKILA 26 FEB 1989 ETH ETH 3 Ottawa (CAN) 27 MAY 2018

87 2:09:29 Salaheddine BOUNASER 1985 MAR MAR 1 Wien (AUT) 22 APR 2018

88 2:09:31 Desmond MOKGOBU 23 NOV 1988 RSA RSA 1 Oita (JPN) 04 FEB 2018

88 2:09:31 Abera KUMA 31 AUG 1990 ETH ETH 5 Otsu (JPN) 04 MAR 2018

90 2:09:32 Elisha Kiprop BARNO 1985 KEN KEN 3 Houston, TX (USA) 14 JAN 2018

91 2:09:34 Soloman DEKSISA 11 MAR 1994 ETH ETH 1 Mumbai (IND) 21 JAN 2018

91 2:09:34 Hayato SONODA 05 APR 1989 JPN JPN 2 Oita (JPN) 04 FEB 2018

93 2:09:36 Kohei OGINO 08 DEC 1989 JPN JPN 12 Tokyo (JPN) 25 FEB 2018

94 2:09:42 Stephen CHEMLANY 09 AUG 1982 KEN KEN 3 Praha (CZE) 06 MAY 2018

95 2:09:43 Tadashi ISSHIKI 05 JUN 1994 JPN JPN 13 Tokyo (JPN) 25 FEB 2018

96 2:09:44 Seboka NIGUSSE 1984 ETH ETH 1 Hannover (GER) 08 APR 2018

96 2:09:44 Edwin KOECH 1987 KEN KEN 1 Dalian (CHN) 13 MAY 2018

98 2:09:47 Akinobu MURASAWA 28 MAR 1991 JPN JPN 14 Tokyo (JPN) 25 FEB 2018

99 2:09:49 Kenneth Mburu MUNGARA 07 SEP 1973 KEN KEN 1 Gold Coast (AUS) 01 JUL 2018

100 2:09:50 Kenta MURAYAMA 23 FEB 1993 JPN JPN 2 Gold Coast (AUS) 01 JUL 2018

96 Brits have ever run between 3:35.00 and 3:39.99

24 Brits have ever run faster than 3:35.00

The problem with using 1990 as a hard and unnatural line in the sand is that it doesn't allow for a staggered uptake. If we look at the steroid revolution it started back in the 1950s but athletes in the 1980s were far better at using the same drugs. If we look at epo it's uptake was likely similar to this in elite distance running (+800m): 1987 say 0.2%, 1988 say 1.5-2.5%, 1989 5%, 1990 7.5%, 1991 say 12%, 1992 20%, 1993 say 35%, 1994 58%, 1995 70%. What's more is that original users probably used it to run 13:25 etc in 1988, while users in 1997 used it to do 12:57. So there was also a talent uptake drift, with gradually more and more talented athletes taking this drug. This also doesn't allow for drug combos and the effects they have.

This looks like a copout. TBH, I don't think you have shown the capability. You can't think clearly because of your strong bias and prejudice. In my opening comments, I said: "How often do we see these kind of EPO related claims: ... - EPO was widely used, up to 57% according to recent surveys." and then, in the second post: "2) everybody (up to 57%) from everywhere cheats," Several reasons you fail to understand, is that from the very beginning, from these clear quotes you got these things WRONG: 1) "Everybody" was qualified: up to 57%, a number that comes from a survey that was heavily discussed at that time. 2) This idea that "everybody cheats (up to 57%)" is not MINE, but it is what people who respond to me tell me, supported by one recent survey. "How often do we hear" is not part of MY argument, but what EVERYBODY ELSE, people like you, say repeatedly. 3) It is not my "underlying assumption", but part of the real world context in which to interpret the results -- results compiled with very little knowledge about how clean or dirty they are. This is your failure to understand, not my failure to present clearly. You see, if doping prevalence is up to 57%, a figure coming from a recent survey, as repeatedly told to me by one of my rebutters, and Africans only form 3% plus 6% of the population, this means at least the remaining, up to 48%, is coming from outside Africa. It might be more than or less than 48%, but it is unlikely to be 0%. And what I have shown is that outside of Africa, which includes clean runners, and runner from the previously mentioned 48%, compared to runners in 1990, only 32 non-Africans have progressed, and in the range of 0.3%-0.7%, while some 500 Africans, in the same time frame, progressed in the range of 2%-3%. While it's tempting to use this as "proof" that more Africans (despite the survey) must have cheated more, I didn't dwell on the African performance, but found the low quality and low quantity of the non-Africans, during the EPO-era, anomalous, unlikely, unprecedented, incredible, unbelievable, given all these other things people tell me. In my analysis, I don't need to make any assumption or determination that non-African runners to doped: - If top non-Africans did not take EPO during the EPO-era, then certainly EPO did not help them - If top non-Africans did take EPO during the EPO-era, then EPO, and all other factors combined, only helped 32 non-Africans, from more than 150 nations, representing 85-88% of the world population, for 28 years, progress by 0.3%-0.7%

Coevett wrote:

TBH, I don't think you're worth spending the time to understand.

You said in the very first post of your epic 'A closer look..'' thread, that 'everybody cheats' and that was one of your underlying assumptions. If the top 5 performances might be clean or they might be dirty, what does the fact that East African performances improved to much greater degree to that of other countries/continents prove? To most people that the top 5 East African performances were more likely to be dirty (i.e. taking EPO), not that 'EPO impact is marginal'.

But now you're going to tell me you never said everybody is dirty or that East African performances improved relatively or that EPO impact is marginal.

no excuse wrote:

96 Brits have ever run between 3:35.00 and 3:39.99

24 Brits have ever run faster than 3:35.00

Taking the all time list is a little misleading to say the least.

Also, how come Kip Keino was able to smash the Olympic record in Mexico city at an altitude 50% greater than that of Nairobi. I thought that was their genetic advantage?

You're telling me that Kenyans running 3:40-3:45 in the Rift Valley never get the chance to run in Nairobi or anywhere else? Any Kenyan (particularly young Kenyan) running those times would be picked up by coaches, especially if it's so obvious to LetsRunners that they are clearly capable of running sub 3:40.

Currently, 3:40 gets you ranked just outside the top 20 in Kenya. You get Kenyans running 3:45 in places like Japan. You'd expect the 'lack of bulge' to occur maybe in 3:55 or even higher, not at borderline world class.

It doesn't explain anything. Kenyans are doping at the top. We don't even need to be discussing this, we knew it was true already. Maybe local races at altitude explain Kiprop's bust too?

Coevett wrote:

no excuse wrote:

96 Brits have ever run between 3:35.00 and 3:39.99

24 Brits have ever run faster than 3:35.00

Taking the all time list is a little misleading to say the least.

10 Brits have run between 3:35.00 and 3:39.99 in 2017

3 Brits have run faster than 3:35.0 in 2017

Coevett wrote:

We don't even need to be discussing this, we knew it was true already.

Not true.

And it's have/has run, not have/has ran.

Subway Surfers wrote:

The problem with using 1990 as a hard and unnatural line in the sand is that it doesn't allow for a staggered uptake. If we look at the steroid revolution it started back in the 1950s but athletes in the 1980s were far better at using the same drugs.

?? Is this really true though?

We only presume athletes in the 80's were using steroids more because more were being caught due to there actually being testing!

In the 1950's there were steroids, stimulants and analgesics; they were all LEGAL and there was no testing whatsoever.

In the 1960's there were even more steroids, they were legal and they only started (basic) testing for them in 1968, but for research purposes; names of any positives found at Mexico City were never published as steroids were still legal. Stimulants and analgesics were only banned in 1967, but there was no testing for them.

In the 1970's, stimulants and analgesics were only first tested for in 1972 Olympics; steroids only added to banned list in 1975, when first reliable test is developed. 1976 - first time steroids tested for at Olympics.

1980's - steroids banned throughout decade:- testing at every major champs, for every world record performance, and at most circuit meets from 1983. Out of competition random testing introduced in several European nations (e.g. UK in 1985).

1985 - blood doping banned. 1989 - HGH banned, OOC random testing of elites carried out by IAAF.

So, the opportunity to cheat and get away with it dramatically declined in the 1980's. The fact that many were caught proves that testing, while clearly far from perfect, was far better than it had been in previous decades. It is a myth that the 80's was the decade when everyone doped. It was the decade when the sport started to do something about it. It was far more likely that athletes in the 50's, 60's and 70's were taking peds that were either still legal or had no test for.

Lydiard Cerutty wrote:

[quote]Just Amazed wrote:

[quote]Coevett wrote:

I was just taking a closer look at the IAAF ranking lists for the year. It's interesting to see the depth of 1500m running. It's assumed that Kenya has astonishing depth, but let's take a closer but brief look :

To date this season :

7 Moroccans have ran between 3:35:00 and 3:39.99

2 Moroccans have ran faster than 3:35:00

So once again we have a pattern in Morocco/Kenya/Britain that's very different to Europe/USA/Oceania, and the exact pattern you would expect from elite doping being a Moroccan/Kenyan/British problem.

7 Brits have ran between 3:35:00 and 3:39.99 in 2015

2 Brits have ran faster than 3:35:00 in 2015

The IAAF ranking lists don't give us information about doping. For you, "temptation/likeliness to use PEDs" is both assumption and conclusion (hint: the often misunderstood "begging the question" logical fallacy). There is another assumption that "Europe/USA/Oceania" resisted the temptation, and if only they took it, they would also produce these better times. Why wouldn't you expect exactly this pattern/distribution from better runners, clean? What pattern would you expect?

3 Brits have ran between 3:35:00 and 3:39.99 in 2002

2 Brits have ran faster than 3:35:00 in 2002

...those innocent virgins from Britain...

That's kinda like saying, the problem with a ruler is that it doesn't tell you the temperature, or your gas mileage. If you want to look at a staggered uptake, then you need to do a different analysis looking for that. What is hard and unnatural about using 1990 as a reference to measure the quality and quantity of post-1990 performances? One of the things that puzzles me is the critique that I ignored the great performances from blood doping and steroids in the 1980's, and that's why the numbers post 1990 were so small. This line of reasoning suggests that the big 3% jump we saw from the Africans, occurred before 1990 for the non-Africans. Was there a corresponding 3% jump due to blood transfusions and steroids? It also suggests an inherent superiority of Africans over non-Africans, because the pre-1990 Africans were competitive against the blood transfused, steroid taking non-Africans.

Subway Surfers wrote:

The problem with using 1990 as a hard and unnatural line in the sand is that it doesn't allow for a staggered uptake. If we look at the steroid revolution it started back in the 1950s but athletes in the 1980s were far better at using the same drugs. If we look at epo it's uptake was likely similar to this in elite distance running (+800m): 1987 say 0.2%, 1988 say 1.5-2.5%, 1989 5%, 1990 7.5%, 1991 say 12%, 1992 20%, 1993 say 35%, 1994 58%, 1995 70%. What's more is that original users probably used it to run 13:25 etc in 1988, while users in 1997 used it to do 12:57. So there was also a talent uptake drift, with gradually more and more talented athletes taking this drug. This also doesn't allow for drug combos and the effects they have.

What perplexing issue? Kenyans and Moroccans have a history of outperforming Americans, excluding Americans like Lagat, Meb, Abdi, Khannouchi, and WCAP athletes. The impact of doping on these top performances is something unknown.

Just Amazed wrote:

You've got to be kidding me!?! No Americans have run under 3:35 while 5 have from Kenya have and 2 from a small country like Morroco? And I don't know if you're aware yet, but Brahim Kaazouzi of Morroco won the 15 today at Rabat running a PB of 3:33.22.

With all the American up & coming young talent, the finest training facilities, great coaches, the best nutritional science, etc. - and we can't even get one guy to run under 3:35? Sad...very sad. ?

It'll be interesting to get rekrunner's analysis of this when he makes his daily rounds early tomorrow morning. He should have some some talking points on this perplexing issue.

no excuse needed wrote:

3 Brits have ran between 3:35:00 and 3:39.99 in 2002

2 Brits have ran faster than 3:35:00 in 2002

4 Brits have ran between 3:35:00 and 3:39.99 in 2001

2 Brits have ran faster than 3:35:00 in 2001

should I look the numbers pre 1985...?