Using Daniel's Marathon Training program and SUCKING ASS.

Don't judge your "no taper" 10K performance too harshly while in the middle of a significant marathon training cycle. Also, make sure you accurately adhere to your paces (not too fast for easy runs, etc.) and don't hesitate to take a rest day now and then..

Try cutting out the ass sucking.

You mention the heat/humidity for the 10k. Is this the norm for your temps right now? If so, that is a killer to marathon train through. It can totally sap you. Marathon training in general can sap you, but add the heat and humidity and it is downright draining.

You also mention this is your first marathon. The training is different than the faster stuff. There is much more accumulated fatigue. Much of that is by design, but it is possible to tip over into too much accumulated fatigue. Looking at your consistent mileage, it might be time for a down week. Maybe even skip the big workout that week altogether or sub it in for a much shorter and less demanding workout.

If you are still dragging, I'd recommend cutting some miles on the easy days. In general more miles is better for the marathon, but not if that is what's beating you down. If 8 easy is no longer easy, just make those days 5 or 6 miles.

To answer your specific question, I don't think T paces necessarily kill speed. I think it's the miles and heat and maybe other things. If you aren't already, do some strides at least once, preferably twice a week. Crisp 15" strides with full recovery. They do help me bring the pop back to my legs when I've been feeling dead.

I am confused - when you say you are in the 10th week and you are in Phase 2, that should mean that you are still in the vo2max portion of the training cycle, with weekly work at vo2max pace. If that is the case, you really haven't gotten to the point where there is a ton of threshold pace work, so I wouldn't think that is what is causing your issues.

I don't know what your running history is, but if this is a big step up in volume for you, the most likely explanation for you feeling flat is that you are still adjusting to the big bump in mileage. That plan does have some fairly big fluctuations in volume, so it can be a real surprise to your body, especially if this entire plan reflects an increase in volume. Also, combining increased volume and summer conditions can be exhausting.

Definitely don't put too much stock in race times, especially in questionable conditions. Those times will ebb and flow throughout the cycle. In the lead up to my 2015 marathon, I ran a great 5k time in August, and then a month later I ran about 40 seconds slower for a 5k and got destroyed by guys I had beaten a month earlier. My marathon a few weeks after that went great. Just the ebb and flow of the training cycle. Also, I tend to notice a lag of a couple of weeks when I am training at high volume - so it could be that the bigger 64 mile week is weighing on you some.

Generally, I try not to worry too much about pace, especially if weather conditions are off, but if you are feeling beat up, I would give some thought to building in a few rest days over and above what you already have scheduled. Fatigued is one thing - and it is pretty much where you want to be - but feeling like something might be wrong is another thing altogether.

C'mon Benjals, get loose! wrote:

Currently in the 10th week of Daniel's Marathon Training Plan A (2nd edition) and I'm running like total garbage. Is this normal?

I'm following the plan basically verbatim. Had about six weeks of Phase 1 (50, 50, 50, 53, 53, 53 miles) and now I'm currently in Phase 2.

I've ran two 64 mile weeks, a 56 mile week, and I'm currently in the middle of a 74 mile week. [...]

I decided run a 10K with no taper this weekend and I ran incredibly bad. Heat and humidity was poor and I only managed a 41:00 when I usually can run mid-38 with ease.

[...]

This is my first marathon training cycle.

I don't remember anything about arse licking in Daniels Running Formula.

A few comments:

1. If you are running with heat and or humidity, it's completely normal for your paces to go up and it's more pronounced the longer the runs and intervals. You may not see much problems with heat training for 5K, but on long marathon paced runs or tempos, you suffer a lot.

2. If it's the first time you run this mileage, it's completely normal to slow a lot. When I could tempo a 38:25 10K (so probably worth about 38:00 on a race), I was running easy at 5:10-5:30 min/km (8:20-9:00 min/mi I think) because I had to recover from heavy marathon workouts. Remember that you start the plan a few VDOTs below your goal. Don't worry about easy pace, except on long runs, if it needs to be 6 min/km, so be it...

3. You should have hit your goal mileage by the end of Phase I. Right now, you have both introduced quality (R & T) and additional mileage (about +20 mpw with respect to Phase I). No wonder you're thrashed...

4. Not wise to race 10K during early quality, unless you tempo it at about 30K pace (see adjusted tempo paces in the second edition).

Also, if I remember well, the marathon plan A has very long sessions, I think you need at least a base of 80 mpw to stomach it. You can follow Jack Daniels's advice to trim the sessions using time equivalences (elites do 1 mi I/M/T in about 5 min and 1 mi E in 6 min).

On the surface just from whats posted here, it looks like not enough base and you ramped up the mileage too fast. Also you have to be careful with the chosen Vdot in the early stages, I used to back up 1 ot 2 Vdot numbers from a 5k-10k race until I got settled in.

From your weekly mileages I conclude that you set your peak mileage at 80 mi/week. That is a lot. With your PRs and training paces I assume you were not accustomed to running this high mileage? From own experience my PRs are quite similar to yours (a bit faster for one mile though) and although I tried some 50 or 60 mile weeks every now and then, most times I average around 40 mi/week. If I tried to build up to repeated 70-80 mile weeks within a few weeks I would not wonder much if I was really tired all the time.

Daniels is tough and your lats reps should be balls to the wall to hit paces but if you are routinely missing something is wrong. Here's my input:

1. Daniel's pace tables are unforgiving. You should set your paces based on the race times you are capable of running at the start of the programme. Not your PR, or the time you ran 6 months ago and certainly not your goal paces. Paces should be based off the shape you are currently in

2.My guess is you have upped your mileage and are new to Daniels. Like I said Daniels is tough...Either you are used to Daniels workouts and decide to increase mileage or you are used to the mileage and you start Daniels. For a guy who has never done Daniels and runs 60mpw...starting Daniels and trying to run 80mpw prob wont end well.

3. Even given points 1 and 2, there does come a time in Daniels when fatigue catches up. I definitely felt like crap for a few weeks but if you can generally hit the paces once you start tapering the results are golden.

4. Forget his easy paces. They are too fast in my opinion and for me an easy run should be based on how you feel that day...if that is 10 minute miles fine...if it is 7 minute miles fine...lot to be said for running easy miles with no watch (especially when doing 2 -3 tough long sessions a week).

Also how have you ramped mileage?

50,50,50,53,53,53 looks fine but then you added tough sessions and went 64,53,73?

Jumps are too big.

A Daniels fan wrote:

Also how have you ramped mileage?

50,50,50,53,53,53 looks fine but then you added tough sessions and went 64,53,73?

Jumps are too big.

This, end of thread. Daniels talks about how to increase mileage in that you should only increase every 4 weeks by the number of days per week you run. So if you were doing 6 days a week and doing 53 miles, your progression should have been something like this:

59 59 59 40(down week)

65 65 65 50 (down week)

71 71 71 55 (down week)

73

As you'll see, you wouldn't hit 73 miles for another TWELVE weeks, and yet you did in the third week.

the reason it isn't going well is because you're using the Daniel's Marathon training.

it sucks @ss

A Daniels fan wrote:

Also how have you ramped mileage?

50,50,50,53,53,53 looks fine but then you added tough sessions and went 64,53,73?

Jumps are too big.

Yeah, you jumped WAY to high to quickly. that's your reason. why'd you do that?!

Also, Daniel's plan is pretty bad

Daniels has worked great for me and for athlete's that I work with, so I would take the "It's the fact that you are using a Daniels plan" with a grain of salt. The plan is based on sound principles, and has worked well in practice.

On top of that, to the extent that folks have qualms with the plan, I would expect that those qualms would be more with what is in the plan over the last 12 weeks, and not is what is in the plan from 18 weeks out until 12 weeks out.

Smoove wrote:

Daniels has worked great for me and for athlete's that I work with, so I would take the "It's the fact that you are using a Daniels plan" with a grain of salt. The plan is based on sound principles, and has worked well in practice.

On top of that, to the extent that folks have qualms with the plan, I would expect that those qualms would be more with what is in the plan over the last 12 weeks, and not is what is in the plan from 18 weeks out until 12 weeks out.

I'd agree with this -- and lots of what's already been said. I've used the Daniels 2nd edition marathon A plan about four times and still love it. I tweak things here and there, and you should, too.

First off, I don't even wear a watch on most easy days. I just get in mileage. I think his easy day paces are fine on some days, but would be killer on others. If you're obsessed with hitting those, you won't be recovering from the important days.

Smoove is right, of course, that Phase II is mostly focused on "interval" paced workouts. There is some threshold stuff, but threshold pace should be run *under control* and not balls to the wall. It can be a good, hard run, but you really ought to be focused on practicing running smoothly and efficiently. And those "T" workouts in Phase II are NOT killers.

Also, just stick with it. The point of Phase II is to prepare your body for Phase III. That means Phase II can feel hard, as it should, but it's not nearly as intense as the next 6-week period. But you'll be in better shape by then, and able to handle the tougher Phase III workouts (though they'll be hard!).

Things really come together in Phase IV, though, because (a) you've had more time to adapt to the volume/intensity and (b) toward the end you start bringing down the mileage/intensity.

Bottom line: the system works. It may not be the Best Training Plan Ever Concocted, but you really, really, really can't accurately judge it this early on in your first-ever go at it.

Also, I wouldn't be racing a 10-k at this point with the mindset of expecting to blow the doors off of it. That's NOT what you're training for. You're training for a marathon that's still 12-16 weeks away.

Thanks for the advice, everyone. No idea I come back to Letsrun and see this type of response.

As for peak mileage, yes, I was planning on 80 a couple times during the plan. But there are a few cutback weeks thrown in (as in he wants you to do fractions of that peak mileage to recover a bit).

As for easy days, I do leave the watch at home most days when I already know the distance I'm going to run. It was just shocking to see slow I was running. I also have handled some higher mileage weeks in my past and topped around 60 a couple times late in the winter this year but it was all easy mileage and nothing hard thrown in.

Regardless, I do plan on doing all the workouts even if I don't hit the prescribed mileage. Today was the 2 hr 25 min long run which ended up being 19.15 miles, which was a bit of surprise considering how terrible I have felt over the past weeks.

C'mon Benjals, get loose! wrote:

FWIW: Age 39. PR's in my 30's - Mile: 4:50, 5K PR: 17:25. 10K PR: 38:05. This is my first marathon training cycle.

1. You're 39.

2. A 4:50 mile, but 10k is only 38 minutes = lack of endurance.

3. First marathon.

I agree with the others about increasing mileage slower, but you had to expect this would happen.

Glad to hear! When your race? And where? It'd be fun if you'd keep us posted on your progress, perhaps on the Weekly Road Race Training thread

Marathons aren't about speed, they are about endurance and raw aerobic strength. Ditch the intervals - stick to sub-threshold stuff. Marathon paced tempos (actual, current MP - not your end goal MP), a fartlek with short sprint of less than 15 seconds buffered by moderate recoveries of 3mins, and a quality long run of 2 to 2.5 hours. Go easy on your easy days, but try going a bit longer, like 80-90mins. Endurance rules all in races longer than 10km.