Road Racing & Training Thread Week Ending 6-10-18

Smoove, I think I remember you a few weeks back talking about the pledge of allegiance test for threshold running, but I cannot seem to find it. Can you remind me how it works?

outsiderunner wrote:

HRE - A very, very interesting post. Had no idea that this was the case with you, and I would have never guessed it. Thank you for chiming in.

Shorter once talked about "guys wanting it too badly." I think that was me. I was a basket case before races. The ones I did best in were generally marathons where I had no goal in mind other than putting in an honest effort and finishing as close to the front as I could . If I went in planning on running under a particular time it was awful. I think I took myself out of races with nerves before they even started. Maybe it's genetic. One of my sons almost never races as well as his training suggests he will and he too, has all sorts of weird mental stuff going on.

Now you've got me off on a mental ramble. I once suggested to said son that perhaps he trained too well and would be better off doing a lot less. I think he sort of took that as irony or something but it's something I've wondered about myself as I've looked back. The idea is that because I put so much into my training, it really wasn't different from what national class guys were doing, I should get comparable results and there was a lot of pressure of expectations. Maybe if I'd been undertrained I'd not have felt as much pressure and been more relaxed when I raced.

I think it really is all about how relaxed one is when racing. When there is nothing to lose, everything can be gained.

The idea is that when running at LT pace, the perceived effort should be such that you should be running easy enough to be able to answer a question, but hard enough that you cannot comfortably maintain a conversation. The way I like to test that is to use the Pledge of Allegiance as a measure of effort. I should be able to get out a clause at a time, but not more. "I pledge allegiance" - breath or two - "to the flag" - breath or two - "of the United States of America." Breath, breath.

Damm. So i shouldn’t have been talking to the guy at the end of the first mile of my race on Friday. Said “ let’s go catch the lead pack.. little bit at a time”

I gotta learn to keep my trap shut when racing. And race.

Race day is a different animal altogether. I can fairly well until 20-22 miles in a marathon and can reliably get sentences out until the last 20% of shorter races. Race day magic, except for those who have to listen to me yap. Ask Jewbacca - even at a pace that was too fast for me, I could talk just fine halfway through and probably wasn't struggling to talk until 11 miles or so. I think that's fairly common, especially so as the races get longer.

RRR: The melon factor adds a new insight to the "10 pieces of fruit a day" habit.

shoes: Not in response to anything, but my Saucony Zealots have been really reliable so far.

OR: RE Nausea, heaving, and races: That post throws a lot of the past month of comparing your racing/training times into a new light.

Devin: Congrats on the PR!

Stone Cutter: Thanks for taking the time. Seems we've been on the same path but at different points on the journey. I also did years of stumblebumming in training... not even breaking 4! Until I discovered the Hansons. That same plan you mentioned made a runner out of me. Then a few cycles of overly optimistic Daniels training with disappointing results (my fault, not JD's). And then finally, slowing down, building a (more) solid base, and working out on workout days and NOT working out on non workout days. And now here I am planning a HM cycle following Hudson ideas, some of which are Canova-derived.

HRE: Always been an admirer of your contributions on these boards.

Chatting in races:

True story. Probably about 4 years ago I'm in a half-marathon, back in the day when I never even thought about an AG top 10, even in smaller races. A mental racing wuss in those days. A head case of doubts and fear of suffering. It's about mile 9 I suppose. Strung out in ones and twos. I catch up with a guy older than I am and make a comment about the headwind or something and we start talking. Turns out he's Marathon Guo, the first Taiwanese runner to run Boston way back at some point in history. I tell him Boston's my ultimate goal. He very politely points to the guy 50 meters ahead and says something like "Well, then, you ought to be off catching him rather than chatting here with me." This is all in Mandarin Chinese, of course, but that's the gist of it. So, I took his advice. And that was the day I first broke into a top-ten AG finish.

Might have to digest HRE’s post for bit, but some initial thoughts. I’ve mentioned I like Noakes’s central governor model, and that model has a role for subconscious processes in the brain. If some part of your mind tells your body to slow down so that you don’t die, you’ll run slower. Until sophomore year in college, I was a really bad head case on race day (since then, just a moderate one). What really helped me was forcing by myself to laugh and smile in the 15 minutes prior to the race. I’ve read Kipchoge forced himself to smile in races. It helps!

I am a yapper. It's a stress reliever for me. I might be pointing out Becky Wade up ahead to Jewbacca in one race, or telling Deena Castor that I have a better kick than her in another (right before she dropped me), or telling some time LRC poster Schuykill that I had hepatitis right after passing him a water bottle and I had just taken a sip from during our time together racing Boston. But I like to talk. In fact, I think it may be boredom as much as anxiety.

Good to see you on here HRE

OR everyone here knows that I support the general concept behind your training but in a race good feelings be damned. It’s supposed to hurt at a certain point in the race.

Pappy wrote:

JamesTheAmateur, Why is it the end of the racing season? Just find some more races. I wouldn't be too upset dropping 14 pounds and 15 minutes for a 10k is really good. Especially coming off a 10 year hiatus. So like it or not, Congrats on the 10k! It's faster than most people can run.

I'm following Daniels' 5k/10k plan, which is 24 weeks. So I'm doing two 24 week seasons this year. I figure just follow the system as is before making some tweaks, just to see what works, what doesn't, and what I do/don't like. My super far out goal is an OTQ for the 2024 or 2028 Trials. So I'm taking my time. Oh no, I'm happy about the progress I've made, for sure. Just disappointed about the last race. But who isn't after a crappy result?

There are, but I'm part of a club and one of the benefits is being able to run 6 races for free and another 4 for $5 a piece. Since I'm just starting back up, I'm trying to just relearn how to train and get back into it before I race more than approximately once a month. I originally planned on doing a summer track series, but due to work stuff that's off the table now, unfortunately.

too hot wrote:

Good to see you on here HRE

OR everyone here knows that I support the general concept behind your training but in a race good feelings be damned. It’s supposed to hurt at a certain point in the race.

I think there is a time and place for both. I buried myself in the last 5K, was swimming in a pool of lactate before halfway but it yielded my fastest time yet compared to when I ran negative splits and felt like a backyard champ mowing down the runners who were going backwards. But I love to race, whether I’m coasting or hurting badly, so there’s that.

This really goes to the question of what your goal for a race is, I think.

I tend to be pretty far one (and depending on the year and who shows up, 2 or 3) guy, and pretty far ahead of the group behind me. That usually means time trailing for me. And I agree with too hot - that means discomfort about a third of the way into a race and outright pain for the last third.

This spring when I was battling injuries, I just ran for second place, and that meant running even further off the race leader than usual, sticking with the chase pack, then pushing with a mile to go. That meant no discomfort until the last mile, and very little pain at all.

But for the injuries, the fact that I was training through those races, and the fact that I needed to run those races for points in my local series, I wouldn't really race that way. I feel like it doesn't really accomplish much, even though it is a fun way to race - although maybe that should be enough.

I only negative split one race.. the 8k in Feb. And that is because the leader went out slow (as he was a tad sickly and the weather was horrible.. sleet and wind) Splits were 5:57- 5:49 (I Surged the pace)- 5:55 (Hill and didnt want to lead solo in wind)- 5:49-5:46 .. He sit and kicked and dusted me last mile.. I had to go hard from mile out to hold on to second by 1 second.

I split a faster 8k in the 10k the next month, but that was a fun race.

Devin - Awesome job on that mile PR.

Stone - Thanks for sharing your training progression. It was a good read.

Allen - Are your 'new' shoes stability/motion control shoes? Is that what you meant by more supportive? If so, maybe you need neutral shoes. Or is it too much cushion do you think? Shame to drop good money on a pair of shoes and not have them work out. Oddly I find that the less substantial shoes to be more comfortable and fortunately they are a bit less expensive too.

This is great discussion guys—thanks.

You are right, too hot, and Smoove was right to echo your comments. I realize that there comes a time in a race when it is going to hurt. I experience suffering in some races, especially shorter ones, but when it gets to a certain point, I think my mind does what Tdr is describing—it screams “slow down!” I need to somehow work on this. I may have gotten a little better with this in my recent 10k. That particular race always hurts, perhaps the worst, and I have never kicked in that race. At least this time I maintained some speed in the last .3 or so. I can recall in previous attempts looking at the incline at the end and thinking, “Oh no—forget about it.”

I still think Pappy is right, though, about race pacing, esp. for a 10k, but in general, too. It is better not to get into oxygen debt early and to finish strong.

The best way to get better at things is to practice them. While I practice working past that instinctual scream to stop by way of vo2max intervals and even paced tempo runs, given your aversion to those workouts, the next best option is to race more often. Unfortunately, time, financial or body stress limitations prevent us from racing weekly, but any additional exposure would probably have some benefit.