Road Racing & Training Thread Week Ending 6-10-18

That is true. Smoove is correct that I have to put up a performance this summer. Just have this deep feeling its happening..Laying off copious amounts of Beer and going 100% whole food plant based instead of 85% (no white flours or added oils etc.. no processed food) is helping.

I have always wondered about Hansons and the 16 mile long run.. seems a tad light. Weekly volume is indeed more important that one singular long run .. BUT dont know if I would have the confidence going into a 'thon (Esp if it was my first) with a 16 mile long run.

RRR if you were running up to 80 mpw like you have previously and aiming for something sub 3 like I would expect, you would not be directed to stop at a 16 mile long run. 25-30% of weekly mileage and 2-3 hours worth of running are the real guidelines from the book. 16 just happens to fit a large swath of the population and the book mileage well. For you'd it'd probably be ~20. The 16 miler is for people that have done something like Higdon and half their mileage was in the 20 mile long run. For them (me 2 years ago), a Hanson's plan can enable more weekly mileage and more workouts by deemphasizing the "necessity" of a 20 mile long run and the rest surrounding that effort if you don't have the appropriate foundation.

runrincerepeat wrote:

pewow wrote:

Really reflects poor coaching...

Ouch. Cold Shot.

I don't find confidence to be a reflection on coaching.

A little over 2 years ago when I ran a 2:56 marathon I drew a lot of confidence from being able to complete that 16 miler at goal MP. I wasn’t using Hansons but I was familiar with their plan. I don’t think I would have run as fast though if I didn’t supplement with a lot of 3 + hour long runs to get my leg muscles accustomed to the pounding.

Smoove wrote:

But while my calves did cramp, my lats and pecs cramped even worse, and I was also getting quad cramping. I just cannot see why my pecs and lats would cramp so badly if muscle fatigue were the primary culprit.

They do talk about cramps in the non-exercising muscles (after 35min or so in the podcast). That could be due to what they were calling a secondary cause of cramps. I'd give it a listen and see if anything they mention parallels your experiences or gives you some better idea of the source of your cramps. It would be good to see you conquer the cramps for your next sub 2:30 attempt.

As for me, every time I have had cramps it was due to being undertrained and/or fatigued. I'm hoping I do not get any calf cramps tonight on the hard bike ride like I did last week.

AJ is going to have a shot at sending Rupp AND Farah home devastated looks like now.

Hoping for good weather for ya'll in Chicago.. can be hit or miss it seems.

I'm just glad we are going to have to have pacers this year to keep the pace honest and take the edge off of Farah's kick for me a little bit.

YESSS

RUPP VS. FARAH FTW!

To be fair to myself, my prediction was made before any tune-up races. All I had to go off of was a 1:25:05 out-of-shape HM effort in November. I thought my goal was realistic based on my talent two years ago, and my will power to prove to myself that I still had it. Goal setting can be as much art as science, and as much wishful thinking as equivalency calculator. Part of why I jumped in a 5K and a HM along the way, though, was to make sure I was on track...which I turned out to be.

In the AJ v. RRR matchup, I am not placing any bets right now. With or without odds. A lot can happen in 6-7 months, and when a runner trains daily with a long-term goal in mind, and organizes every single run to align toward that one goal...there is no telling what can happen. I think the runner who focuses too much on the performance of each run, each workout, tries to get the best out of himself everytime...is the one who is in more danger of sacrificing the long-term for the short-term.

Which brings me to the Hansons v. Canova discussion.

Why I loved Hansons: They don't have you try to hit homeruns all the time. But, man, they have you hit a lot of singles and doubles over and over and over again, and at the end of the game, all those runs add up. I liked their philosophy that every run matters equally. Yes, the long run is important. Yes, the tempo run is important. Yes, the daily easy run is important. They are all important. Equally. None more than the other. You need all of them to come together and to work together to prepare you for race day. I stuck pretty close to the Advanced Schedule as written in the book. I topped out at two 17 mile runs. One of which was a HM performed at GMP for the first 10 miles and then progressing to HMP the last 3.1 miles. That felt great. All of the MP runs they have you run, week after week, really forces the muscle memory into your body. You know that pace.

But just as much, they caution you about recovering between efforts by running slower (1:00-2:00/mi slower than MP) than other programs would have you run. To me, that was the big difference between their program and all my previous training. I thought the 6-10mi run at true easy pace (7:40-8:40/mi for me) was JUST AS IMPORTANT as the weekend long run. I rarely missed runs, I never had any aches or pains, and on race day...I couldn't believe how awful I actually felt the first few miles (for whatever reason) before, around mile 10, things just clicked and I KNEW IT. That was the first marathon I negative split, and I finished it feeling like I actually got the marathon right.

I continued with Hansons training for a few more HM cycles. I liked it. I would highly recommend it. I think Desi is the perfect example of their philosophy. Somebody who goes out and does the training, nothing more nothing less, nothing super fancy or exotic...but over time, lets the accumulation of consistency win the day.

So why the switch? To be honest, it had to do more with the little bit extra that I thought Canova offered. Like Canova, the Hansons have you gradually lengthen intervals (12x400, to 6x800, to 5x1000, to 3xmile, etc.) and tempo runs (6x1mi, to 4x1.5mi, to 3x2mi, to 2x3mi, etc.) and weekly MP runs (from 6mi to 10mi) so that you are extending race pace. But Canova goes farther, and asks you to touch on a greater variety of paces, not just interval pace, tempo pace, and marathon pace. As demonstrated in the RRTT a few weeks ago, Canova's percentages break down to roughly 5K pace, 8k pace, 10k pace, HMP, 30k pace, marathon pace, as well as paces just slower than marathon pace (MP+5s, MP+10s, MP+15s...MP+40s).

I, personally, also like that Canova allows for some bigger workouts with greater recovery between them. I generally do no more than two workouts a weeks, sometimes just one if it is a bigger/longer effort (i.e., 18-20mi @ 95%MP or, say, a Special Block workout). I also like that some of Canova's workouts force you to "recover" at or close to MP; that is a unique method that, again for me, builds greater confidence and character than say, running a straight 10mi at MP at the end of cumulative fatiguing week.

Would I advocate following a custom Hansons plan? Absolutely. A custom Canova plan? Absolutely. A custom Daniels or Hudsons or Pfitzinger plan? Absolutely. I think there is certainly room and value for all of these type plans that, when followed the way they were actually designed and intended, will adequately prepare you for race day. Do some athletes thrive and succeed at throwing paint on a wall and seeing what sticks? Sure. But to me that is far less predictable and reliable.

But, yes, I think a Canova plan gives you the most tools for your toolbelt, so that when race day comes, you are more adequately equipped to succeed. Just my two cents.

What about Canova’s “aerobic house”?

In runners who are undertrained aerobically, the race specific work is often overemphasized at the expense of basic endurance training.

The Stone Cutter wrote:

Would I advocate following a custom Hansons plan? Absolutely. A custom Canova plan? Absolutely. A custom Daniels or Hudsons or Pfitzinger plan? Absolutely. I think there is certainly room and value for all of these type plans that, when followed the way they were actually designed and intended, will adequately prepare you for race day. Do some athletes thrive and succeed at throwing paint on a wall and seeing what sticks? Sure. But to me that is far less predictable and reliable.

But, yes, I think a Canova plan gives you the most tools for your toolbelt, so that when race day comes, you are more adequately equipped to succeed. Just my two cents.

To me, which plan you choose is much less important than simply having a plan to begin with.

angryjohnny wrote:

The Stone Cutter wrote:

Would I advocate following a custom Hansons plan? Absolutely. A custom Canova plan? Absolutely. A custom Daniels or Hudsons or Pfitzinger plan? Absolutely. I think there is certainly room and value for all of these type plans that, when followed the way they were actually designed and intended, will adequately prepare you for race day. Do some athletes thrive and succeed at throwing paint on a wall and seeing what sticks? Sure. But to me that is far less predictable and reliable.

But, yes, I think a Canova plan gives you the most tools for your toolbelt, so that when race day comes, you are more adequately equipped to succeed. Just my two cents.

To me, which plan you choose is much less important than simply having a plan to begin with.

Agreed.

too hot wrote:

In runners who are undertrained aerobically, the race specific work is often overemphasized at the expense of basic endurance training.

Agreed.

I see the village idiots are back out in force... here we go again.

The Stone Cutter wrote:

angryjohnny wrote:

To me, which plan you choose is much less important than simply having a plan to begin with.

Agreed.

Certainly. I was just curious because Stone has many positive things to say about Hansons so the impetus for the switch was unclear. I fully plan to move.on eventually but I'm still young in this process so I'm still waiting to see what the jump trigger will be. The hitting singles and doubles is a great analogy for Hanson's and I think something that works well for me so far. Maybe it'll change a bit once I'm stronger.

Actually, Coach Jeff - you used Hanson's as a stepping stone too...why did you move on?

I'm trying to apply a Canova based principle for this current 5k cycle... We'll see how I do.

Actually, Coach Jeff - you used Hanson's as a stepping stone too...why did you move on?

おはようございます!

I mentioned before that I was doing Hanson's before the book came out, just off an old running camp schedule I found posted on the Internet and a Runner's World (or Running Times?) article. For me, changing from Hanson's to other plans was simply a desire to experiment. I've joked about my "coach ability," but it's really true that I have a very open mind about (some) things, and I enjoy the experimentation. I am always cautious about success. Sometimes success means you've found "the best way" to do something, but it often only means you've found the best "so far." I also believe that a "plan" is a "tool" and some tools work better on some jobs than on others. I basically just wanted to add some tools to my toolbox and see if I couldn't get the work done even better, given that I felt I had changed as a runner. So...

My training before Hanson's was like trying to drive a wood screw with a butter knife; it can be done, but not efficiently. Hanson's was the perfect Phillips head for me at the time. After using it successfully, I felt I no longer needed to be screwed... I had become a nut... and those closest to me feel I remain a nut to this very day.

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Long running streak ended by a very late work day beyond my control. I need to be back on site in an hour and it looks like it might be a 10 hour day today... so I can probably get one in late...but if it stretches out to 12 hours... we'll see. Have fun.

"coachability"

ee Cummings woulda hated auto correct