on running faster 5Ks and 10Ks as a master

This won't shock you, but I think the secret to running well in the 5k and 10k is doing intervals from 5k to tempo pace which isn't really that much slower than 10k pace for us 40-minute 10k guys. So, yeah, get on the track and lay on the long intervals at 10k pace.

Thanks for the input!

By long intervals, are you talking about 1Ks or even longer ones?

10x1k then developing to 3x3k, race 10k.

By long intervals, are you talking about 1Ks or even longer ones?

"usually" (whatever that means), long intervals means more than 800m and common distances are 1000m, 1200m, 1600m, 1 mile and 2 mile.

because you want to take a low-mileage approach to this, the way I would go about this is to start with a volume for the total session, let's say, 4800m. then you divide that 4800m up into as many different sized chunks as you can.

= 6 x 800m

= 5 x 900m

= 5 x 1000m

= 4 x 1200m

= 3 x 1600m

then you decide on two different paces, basing one of them on your 5km time of 19:00 which is 91s per lap, and then add 6 seconds to that to give you a rough estimate for a 10km pace of 96s per lap, suggesting a 10km time of around 40:30.

then you work out how long it takes to run each of your distances at each of your paces:

dist / 5km / 10km

800m 3:05, 3:15

900m 3:25, 3:38

1000m 3:48, 4:05

1200m 4:35, 4:50

1600m 6:05, 6:30

then you calculate your recovery as a percentage of the run time. at 5km pace you start with a recovery of 80% time of the run, and at 10km pace you start with a recovery of 70% time of the run. which gives you:

at 5km pace

dist / run (rec)

800m 3:05 (2:30)

900m 3:25 (2:45)

1000m 3:48 (3:00)

1200m 4:35 (3:40)

1600m 6:05 (4:55)

at 10km pace

dist / run (rec)

800m 3:15 (2:15)

900m 3:38 (2:30)

1000m 4:05 (2:50)

1200m 4:50 (3:25)

1600m 6:30 (4:30)

then your three runs each week will consist of a long run, and one session from each of the above groups. in each group you start with the first session, so you run 6 x 800m not faster than 3:05 each, and you take a recovery of 2:30. if you find that you recover well from this session, on your low-mileage approach, you are sleeping well, injury free and so forth, then you run the same session again. never be shy of repeating a session you know you can do. you only have to progress when you have stopped benefiting from a session. plan to run each seesion 4 - 5 times, that's once per week for 4 - 5 weeks.

to progress, you simply move to the next session; 5 x 900m not faster than 3:25 each with a 2:45 recovery. when you get to the point where you have either run out of sessions in that group, or you are not ready for some reason to move to the next session, then you start to reduce the recovery. cut it by chunks of 5% the run time. so if you're running 3 x 1600m no faster than 6:05 with a 4:55 recovery, and, on your low mileage with swimming and cycling or whatever else you are doing, you are recovering well, sleeping fine, not injured and so forth, then cut the recovery to 75%, which gives you 3 x 1600m no faster than 6:05 with a 4:35 recovery. repeat as necessary. when you get the recovery down to less than 40% it's time to start running them a little bit faster.

if you race 5km or 10km, adjust your run paces to suit. at any point you can replace either session with either a 40 minute fartlek session or a session of hill repeats for some variety.

three important points:

1. to runners used to higher mileage these will seem like easy sessions with long recoveries, but only you can tell how you are responding to this sort of work off a much lower mileage which means that you are the only judge of when you are ready to progress.

2. the run times ALWAYS mean NOT FASTER THAN. there is zero advantage to running these sessions faster than stated. if you genuinely cannot run slowly enough, then you need to go further not faster.

3. you don't have to make constant progress. never be shy of repeating what you did last week. take a down week every 3 - 4 weeks to make sure you are recovering properly. patience is a virtue.

cheers.

It is very unlikely you are going to be be able to run a good 10k training 40K or less a week. That's like 1 long run and a workout a week and nothing else.

notafatty wrote:

It is very unlikely you are going to be be able to run a good 10k training 40K or less a week. That's like 1 long run and a workout a week and nothing else.

As he’s not done this type of work. He will improve.

Mileage isn’t the only factor in improvements, it’s a big one, but not the only one. Remember that pearl of wisdom sunshine.

I didn't say he wasn't going to improve, I said he wasn't going to be able to run a good 10K. There is a big difference between improving at something and doing something well. Remember that pearl of wisdom sunshine.

Cottonshirt wrote:

2. the run times ALWAYS mean NOT FASTER THAN. there is zero advantage to running these sessions faster than stated. if you genuinely cannot run slowly enough, then you need to go further not faster.

You ercommend intervals at 5K pace and 10K pace. Can you say why you would go for this over say Daniels, where interval pace is faster than 5K (and threshold pace is around 10K pace)? As I'm sure you know his paces are thought out based on vVo2max pace the benefits that brings, and recovery designed to maximise time at vVo2max. 5K pace is under vVo2max so won't do the same job, correct?

master_blaster wrote:

when I did 3:01, I was just doing only 3 runs per week, one interval (4-5x1k, 1 tempo, and 1 long run), and sometimes I added one more intermediate long run...but all were moderately fast, even my 30K+ long runs were at less than 4:30min/K pace

You have already your answer. Revert to your old training style with days off instead of recovery runs.

Run moderately fast all the time, shorten your long run and alternate short and long intervals.

Add strides and hills when possible, be consistent and your PR will go down easily.

k7v8g2c5m2 said: You recommend intervals at 5K pace and 10K pace.

only for this specific individual.

a 43-year-old man who runs a 3 hour marathon and 19:00 5km, but who wants to switch to an ultra-low mileage approach with only 3 runs per week while training for 5km has no room in his schedule for vVO2max sessions nor any real reason to run them.

cheers.

wow, really detailed and great advice, CottonShirt! I am traveling at the moment and can't train that properly. I will do a 10K mid-June to use as a baseline, and then start a program according to your suggestions for a 10K race in August. Will report as I progress.

Thanks a lot!

"For at least a year". remember the core principle of periodization.

Doing the same kind of workouts for such a long time period - aiming to achieve the same kind of stimulus – even with a continuous upgrade of slightly longer reps, decreased recovery time etc will not be effective.

Why not try to do a longer base period with 4 weekly runs in stead of 3. On long run, two easy runs of at least 60 min including striders and tempo runs of varying kinds. And a tempo session: Longer slower tempos, fast 20 min tempos or tempo intervals etc. Should get you just over 50K pr week.

Then you move into a phase where you keep the long run and the crucial tempo work, but add 10K paced intervals to the mix. Ease into it. 3 mins on 1 min off - sort of thing. Progress to 1K intervals @ 10 K pace with short rest and finish those sessions with 5x200m at mile race pace.

Then finally for 4-8 weeks you focus on tempos plus intervals @ 5K pace. 800s are my fav.

You don't need more than that.