Western States talk 2018

There's much much more 2:40 guys that suck at ultrunning as the few ones that succeed. Its just there are such a smaller pool of sub 2:10 guys as a percentage to succeed from. I'm not ready to say we're there yet. Remember back in the olden days a few years ago when they said the JFK 50 miler record was "legendary", before the road runners started thinking it was cool enough to try? Well we know what happened there. Its only a matter of time and interest and fad, before a sub 2:10 guy makes a big splash.

However, it's been almost a decade since the 2:10-2:20 road runners thought it would be cool to try the UTMB. However, none have succeeded vs those extremely slow, talentless, sloth 2:30 marathoners. Don't think sub 2:10 will make much of a difference.

Francoise for the men

Camille for the women and top 5 overall

Both know how to get big competitive wins and run 100 miles. Jim and Courtney have consistently cracked against competition. I don't really care about anyone else.

the test wrote:

However, it's been almost a decade since the 2:10-2:20 road runners thought it would be cool to try the UTMB. However, none have succeeded vs those extremely slow, talentless, sloth 2:30 marathoners. Don't think sub 2:10 will make much of a difference.

What 2:10 runner has taken an attempt seriously, rather than dipped the toe in the water?

...to expand on the whole concept/sport category, why do we think that these long trail runs are so popular with the masses ? Remember, without masses there isn't a sport.

And most of them spend a day and a half walking 100km through bush, headlights, backpack etc...why don't they just take the family on a bush walk if it is for the fun

A UTA race this weekend is attracting all and sundry from running mums, to guys who did couch to 5km last year...for $400.00

You pay a lot for bragging rights at the office :-)

Camille for the win! wrote:

Not only do I think she might manage to beat Jim Walmsley, I think she could have a shot at being the top overall finisher. Yes, I know the odds are very low, but I am going to throw it out there: Camille is going to be the the top man or woman to finish WS this year. And, even if she doesn't, my fat arse is going to be following the race online drinking a beer and cheering her on! I do think she has a good shot at a top-10 overall finish. Oh, yes, and of course she gets major bonus points for running Comrades two weeks before. I don't think Jim or any of other male contenders at WS are tough enough to try that!

The fact that she's running the Comrades 2 weeks before, and going for the win by all I've read, means that I'd be very surprised if she comes in, in the top 10, never mind top overall.

the test wrote:

However, it's been almost a decade since the 2:10-2:20 road runners thought it would be cool to try the UTMB. However, none have succeeded vs those extremely slow, talentless, sloth 2:30 marathoners. Don't think sub 2:10 will make much of a difference.

Part of the problem is people getting offended, 2:30 is as good as 2:10 if that's as far as your genetics can take you and you work just as hard. Look at it this way, the 2:40 guys came in and improved the standards for western states. Back in the 70's or whenever western states started it was hardcore everyday guys who were 3:20 at best probably ran their guts out for a 20+ hour finish, and then 2:40 type people came in. I don't understand the irrational desire to draw the line at 2:40 guys....then 2:30 guys.....then 2:20 guys.....then 2:10 guys. Faster is faster end of story, just as many of them as a percentage suck at ultrunning, and just as many of them as a percentage are diamonds in the rough, that can run long and fast, or up and fast.

I agree with this, I think the prevailing thought on these boards is that because you run a relatively slow paceduring ultras it is inherently easy and therefore if a truly fast guy wanted to toe the line they would easily win. This is patently untrue. If I am not mistaken some sub 4 min miler lined up for The Speedgoat 50k this year and DNF'd. No doubt if some of those 2:10 guys put all their effort into training for MUT races they would dominate. But many would flounder and fail. The difference between road/track and trail is there are significantly more variables to deal with at any given time, any of which could come out of nowhere and take you down. In that respect a lot of running ultras is preparation for/mitigation of disaster. Totally different mindset. Another is the ability to run weeeeelllll below your own capability for a long time, as trying to make up a minute per mile on mile 5 of the race could lead to slowing down >10 min/mile at mile 65 or a DNF. Some people are unable to show that restraint (Jim Walmsley so far in the 100 mile for example). Throw in technicality of the trails, elevation from sea level, heat, etc and some people just are not cut out for it.

I say this as a decently speedy hobby jogger who had success on the roads before moving to Colorado and startingtrail running. I thought it would be a joke to run 9 min miles and my skills would transfer to the trails. I was dead wrong, and floundered like the biggest joke during my first season racing. It has taken me 3 years to form into a decent semblance of a mountain/ultra runner, and I feel like I need at least 2 more years to truly put it all together.

Anyhow, hoping Coree Woltering pulls of a huge upset this year. Also is Alex Nichols running again? Don't count him out if so, dude is solid.

Female race is where it is at though, Dauwalter and Camille deserve to absolutely destroy that course, hopefully Camille can keep it together in the mountains. Courtney is just inspiring AF and I wish her all the success in the world.

Michael Aish was a 2:13 guy and didn't fare terribly well. Granted he was most likely on the back end of his career but it should have been simple for him to smash all those 2:30 guys out there.

I am a 2:31 road marathoner and ran speedgoat a couple years ago and finished in 7:12 absolutely annhilated by mile 15 and finishedi nl ike 30th place. I have come a long ways since then but yes. Its completely different. Running a 14 minute mile on a 14er is like running a 4:50 mile on a road.

Will they be enforcing any drug testing at this years event?

UltraWonky wrote:

Michael Aish was a 2:13 guy and didn't fare terribly well. Granted he was most likely on the back end of his career but it should have been simple for him to smash all those 2:30 guys out there.

You can probably count on one hand the number of 2:13 guys who's ever seriously tried and trained for leadville. You would run out of hands counting the number of 2:40 to 3:30 guys who's tried and failed FAR WORSE than Aish over all time. I think Rob Krar was an 800 meter runner. That's about as preposterous to think 800m would translate to ultra distances, but no one would argue he's top echelon ultrarunner who's changed the sport. You never know, and sorry to say but the guys who will take ultras to the next level isn't going to be 2:40 guys they've hit their limit, that's the whole point.

I think Krar had a 1:05 or so half marathon and at least a 2:25 marathon (That year Boston had the Nor'easter) to his credit before going into ultras though

She did the same in the past year and after winning Comrades she DNFed WS quitting very soon...

S. Canaday wrote:

I think Krar had a 1:05 or so half marathon and at least a 2:25 marathon (That year Boston had the Nor'easter) to his credit before going into ultras though

Sage, In all seriousness, thank you for chiming in on these boards, as you have for a long time, but your voice to the ultra community is important. Talking to some of your road and track peers that have ventured into ultra (tollefson, hawks, king, walmsley, mocko, laney, wardian) what's been the biggest adjustment into the trail scene and what skills do they find transfer well and others that have taken some time to develop? I don't believe Dylan Bowman, Tim Olson, and some other bigger names had a road running background, yet they've found big success in the sport without the road, track speed. In these cases, is it simply they're more strength runners and that's the differentiating factor? I don't believe you've spoke on this, maybe you have, what kind of cadence are elites running at during races like Western, UTMB, or a 50k @ altitude like Speedgoat?

Memory leak wrote:

She did the same in the past year and after winning Comrades she DNFed WS quitting very soon...

“There was a lot of snow in the first 15 miles of Western States this year… I slid down an embankment into a tree and had a concussion,” Herron said. “I kept falling, then started having pain and paralysis in my hands, pain in my head and neck. It was not a good state to be in just five miles into the race—it was pretty traumatic.”

She was knocked out unconscious at 5 miles. Head trauma is no joke. There was a lot of snow in the high country last year, and they didn't take the snow route. This year looks like there's not going to be any snow.

Sage, we all appreciate your perspective.

Who you got on the podium at this years WS100??????!!

Also in regard to Dehane - he also set the Muir trail FKT last summer, dude is a BEAST.

I created the "film" MUT Runner to talk about how I saw "Road and Track guys" in the US moving into the sport of Mountain-Ultra Trail Running...this was way back in 2014. Interviewed runners include runners like Max King, Rob Krar, Dakota Jones, Timmy Olsen, Anna Frost, Stephanie Howe etc. : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORnzmNciOe4 For some context, it really has been nothing new in seeing track and road runners move into to mountain-trail racing. I mean look at Jono Wyatt (27-min 10km runner and 2:13 marathoner) and his shorter distance mountain records. Mt. WA one is super tough! 56min.... Even Matt Carpenter had a 2:19 marathon to his name at least. Joe Gray has been also doing shorter distance mountain races (usually under 50km) for the past 7 + years. One reason I got into the sport because I saw how well Max King was doing. Max was doing ultras and mountain racing back in 2010. 8:30 in the steeple and 2:14 marathon and sub 14:00 for 5km also to his name....as well as a US National XC team. There is a very big difference in events within "MUT" though. 100-miles on a track or flat trail is a totally different event compared to UTMB (100-mile in the mountains). They are both 100 miles, but the former might be a 11-12 hour race for a top runner, while the latter may take 20 hours. Different mechanics and a "Variable Running Economy" are involved. Now I've failed epically at all sorts of distances. 100km and 100-milers (I usually only do mountain ones so far) have been "less predictable" compared to something like a runnable/faster 50km-50-miler or shorter mountain races. But I've also been totally humbled at shorter mountain races as well (Sierre-Zinal....only 20 miles) as well as the first time I did Peaks Peak Ascent. I have also struggled to crack 60-min again at MT. WA and 2:19 again in the marathon since starting ultras in 2012. For the record I believe guys like Anton and Timmy Olsen and even Dakota Jones all did run cross country in high school. I think Anton actually ran at Colorado College where he was teammates with Alex Nichols. Now those guys might all not be able to crack 2:25 in the marathon (well I think Alex can!), but again for some mountain races and 100-milers it doesn't matter as much. Not to knock Timmy Olsen too much, but it was an abnormally cool day when he set that CR at Western. Rob Krar's time there (a few minutes slower) in the heat should probably be considered a much better performance. I've raced Timmy 7 times over the past 5 years or so...he has come very close to beating me (Tarawera 100km). Hayden Hawks and Tim F. are super great guys and speedy track/cross country runners (heck we can even throw Cole Watson in that mix as well), but depending on the course a much "slower" guy like Zach Miller can still mix it up with them at a hilly 50-mile+ race. At the shorter distances like the US Mountain Running Champs 10-12km probably not though. I've raced Zach at Mt. WA and he still has about a 63-62min ascent in him though! First time I ran Speedgoat in 2013 I had Anton breathing down my neck on the final decent. He finished only 90 seconds behind me (5+ hour race) and had passed Max King and Jason Schlarb I believe. Now Anton may have not been able to crack 16:00 for 5km or even 2:30-2:25 for the marathon, but he had some big miles in the mountains (And the dude can really scramble and powerhike!). I think he probably gained 3-5min alone on me in a 1/3 mile stretch up the 30% uphill grade "off trail" section around mile 20 of Speedgoat. Even Dylan Bowman had jumped in some 10km cross country races in CA and run around 32-min I think. A lot of European guys who do very well at 100km-100-miles in the mountains come from other sport backgrounds like skiing and even adventure racing and cycling. That being said, with incentives to do well in the sport of MUT we've now seen more doping cases. A Top 10 guy at UTMB popped for EPO. Heck, when I ran Comrades with Max King in 2015 I finished a dismal 15th place but 2 guys in the top 10 tested positive for PEDS on a race day test! From the world mountain running champs to "small town" little trail ultras you will be getting more people cutting corners. The way I see it (and I again I've failed epically at races like UTMB and WS100), there are these basic limiting factors that will slow you down: 1. Glycogen depletion (much like a marathon). Now you can take in carbs and be okay here if you pace yourself accordingly and have done some "fat burning" long runs. Problem is if you have: 2. GI distress. Could be from taking in too many calories at once or the sheer stress of running for so long (or running too hard with lack of blood flow to GI tract), but could also be caused by: 3. Dehydration/imbalance of electrolytes. Can cause major stomach distress (me at Western States 100...coupled with the factor that I was simply trying to run too hard in the heat). Puking. Stuff coming out of the other end...you get the picture. 4. Overheating OR Hypothermia. Running to hard in the heat (Western) leading to heat stroke. OR Running in cold wet conditions with bad gear and staying out on a windy mountain all night...(me racing Boston marathon this year etc.). 5. Sheer muscle fatigue. Downhills too fast and blow your quads out. Calf/hamstring cramps from climbing too hard and not being used to the motions. People think they cramp from dehydration and lack of salts...that can be the case...but more likely its just sheer muscle fatigue. So that's pretty much it! Now which one (or usually a combination of these) will slow you down in a MUT Race? Now if we could just minimize the risk for these we can optimize our "Variable Running Economy" (Running Efficiency for Any Surface Any Distance). Train the legs to somehow deal with all the sheer muscle fatigue and we can eliminate that. If we naturally have a high Vo2max and well trained Lactate Threshold then aerobic power and lactate is not a problem. We can charge up hills/mountains without breathing too hard. Then we have to look at the fueling issue though. Well, to handle the very high workout of charging up mountains for tens of thousands of feet and hours on ends we need to then be able to take in a lot of sugar. Then the only limiting factor is whether or not we are going to have GI issues and puke because we are trying to ingest 400-500 calories/hour...which is a lot! I can only handle 300-400cal/hr. But that is a simplification. It is a fickle sport. Racing longer distances isn't harder...there are just more variables that can go exponentially wrong! Sometimes the 2:30 marathoner beats the 2:15 marathoner.

Fantastic breakdown. Love it. Appreciate all the feedback to these boards!

And to follow up with the "biggest adjustment into the trail scene...from the roads." I'd say marathon road training and cross country 10km training are all very good prep. The transition to the trails (compared to coming from the trails back down to the roads/track) is easier I think. But it depends on the course. A 50km or a flat/smooth trail 100mile is a lot more correlated with road marathon fitness/times - whereas a super steep technical mountain race (even shorter ones like 12km) and mountain 100-milers can be a totally different ball game. It really depends on the sheer amount of climbing of a race (which influences duration) as well as how technical the trails are (also influences duration)....then you have nutrition/hydration and weather factors... A lot of the guys that come from road and track backgrounds are usually good right out of the gate in their first few races: Hayden Hawks, Rob Krar etc. Even my first 50-miler (White River in 2012) was probably one of my best ones. You get humbled by Euro style racing and really steep mountain stuff or technical stuff though if you are only used to road/track. Usually a sub 30-min 10km guy or a sub 2:25 marathoner guy can climb pretty well on a runnable trail though because they have the aerobic capacity and lactate threshold to handle higher intensity! Technical downhills may be another story though...that can be a big learned skill and is a matter of taking risk. I used to tell people that Max King would have trouble winning a competitive race with more than 10,000' of climbing (think North Face 50-miler in San Fran). He is a monster of a downhill runner and his climbing has now improved (3rd at Mont Blanc Marathon last year behind Killian!...net uphill race). But I don't think he has a sub 60-min Mt. WA in him...or even a super fast Pikes Peak Ascent. Max is probably the best Any Surface Any Distance all around guy I know though...not afraid to toe the line at the Olympic Trials and not afraid of Euro Mountain Racing and 100km-100milers. I greatly respect Max and I have finished both ahead of him and behind him in multiple races. Other things to learn would be nutrition hydration optimization and how to use your gear (jackets, packs etc) effectively. But a lot of really well trained road/track guys don't progress a ton...even after "learning a few things". Even a guy like Zach Miller was very , very good 4 -5 years ago pretty much when he started....same goes for when Dakota Jones went sub 7 hours at Transvulcania and won the race over Killian when he was like 20 years old. I think it all comes down to "Variable Running Economy." Some of that is natural talent...having a stride that can adjust to uneven trails, mud/snow, mountain grades. Legs that can withstand the pounding efficiently. A sub 4-min miler isn't always going to have the range to be good at the marathon or longer races (usually they don't actually!)...or might not be good climbing up 15-20% grade hills. Some of that can be improved a bit from training (high mileage, long runs Hill repeats etc), but we all have different strengths and weaknesses (muscle fiber distribution, mechanics, etc) and improvements are usually very marginal. I certainly have messed it up a lot in the past 5 years, but I've raced a lot! Camille Herron has done well at the flat/runnable ultras. But take her stride/running form and put it on a trail like UTMB or Speedgoat (or even last year's snowy/muddy first 30miles at WS100) and maybe her efficiency suffers? I don't know. Her 100-mile times on the flats/smooth trails/roads (her best performances) correlate much better to marathon-road speed and fitness...because that Running Economy is more specific to "flat and runnable."