Is Daniel Komen's 3000m world record insurmountable?

thrt54thth wrote:

vivalarepublica wrote:

Komen had it easy with a pacer for two-thirds of the race.

Bekele ran without a pacer for the last 3k of that 12:37. Insane.

I agree that Bekele ran a physiologically stronger race in his 5000m WR due to having less and worse pacing even though the absolute value of the times is about equal.

Let's be careful not to invite a certain Letsrun theoretical physicist with this discussion....

I think that dude has lost it, finally. Let's hope so, at least.

Both times are pure insanity that are very difficult to break. I think Komen ran with a reckless intensity that we don't see on the circuit these days. Fast time attempts in the 3k/5k/10k these days always seem to have bad pacing, nobody going with the pacers, or everybody slowing down for a kick after pacers drop out.

thrt54thth wrote:

vivalarepublica wrote:

Komen had it easy with a pacer for two-thirds of the race.

Bekele ran without a pacer for the last 3k of that 12:37. Insane.

I agree that Bekele ran a physiologically stronger race in his 5000m WR due to having less and worse pacing even though the absolute value of the times is about equal.

Let's be careful not to invite a certain Letsrun theoretical physicist with this discussion....

Komen also broke the 3000m WR by four and a half seconds. A comparable run for Bekele would've been breaking the WR by 7seconds or so. Instead there were two runs already within 3 seconds of what he ran, and he broke Gebs WR by 2 seconds.

Komen was my favorite and imo the most talented of the three.

It's amazing you apologists are still coming out with this after Kiprop. Kiprop dropped away over 6 seconds from his 1500 best and he was still taking EPO but likely much lower doses (and still got caught, despite being tipped off).

I see that Aouita doesn't even make the top 20 list anymore, even though his WR at the time, less than a decade before Komen, was seen as one of the most remarkable in history. And he, as we know, was likely taking everything he could get his hands on (likely a lot, even perhaps clinical research EPO). Africa sure untapped a rich vein of talent as soon as EPO hit the market. Funny how they still can't match that batch of running geniuses now, even though their population has doubled, infrastructure improved, diet, lack of war etc.

thrt54thth wrote:

It's also about equal to 12:37, which I don't think will go down for a long time either for the same reasons.

It's only a question of which one Ingebrigtsen breaks first.

haha!

The 3000/5000/10000 records remind me of the records in the women's throwing events all set in the 80s.

That list is all the proof you need to know that EPO is highly effective on top level African physiology, don't know why the argument rages on.

sit and kick wrote:

http://running.competitor.com/2014/06/features/what-ever-happened-to-daniel-komen_27486

"

Los Angeles Times writer Mike Penner penned a piece under the headline, “Lack of Fanfare Over Daniel Komen Breaking Eight-Minute Barrier in Two-Mile Run Does Nothing to Diminish Kenyan’s Remarkable Achievement.”

In August, Komen won the World Championships 5,000m, lowered his 1,500m time to 3:29.46 and his mile time to 3:46.48, and stole another world record from Gebrselassie, running 12:39.74 for 5,000 meters in difficult conditions in Brussels. Somehow he managed to keep the momentum going through the winter of 1998, when he set indoor world records for 3,000m (7:24.90—a mark known as the “Mt. Everest” of athletics) and 5,000 meters, ran another 7:58 two-mile, in Australia, and claimed a silver medal in the World Cross Country Championships short-course race.

Read more at

http://running.competitor.com/2014/06/features/what-ever-happened-to-daniel-komen_27486#eJrVxC8mAR4k37JF.99

"

One of the greatest responders to EPO. Among all of the E. Africans allowed to cheat and run wild with PED use, he stands as one of the Gods, along with KB, HG, and other record setting legends of E. African EPO greats.

In part, it's because people seem to have lost interest in serious attempts on 3000, 5000, 10000 WRs - so people focus on marathons or winning championship medals. I suppose it's to do with the money...

I have my doubts that Aouita was on EPO, but it is possible, most likely roids, hgh (which he basically outed himself on) and perhaps transfusions. As for Komen I doubt that he could run under 13 minutes or even 13:10 without epo. The situation was obviously so bad back in the mid 90s, they just ramped up their hematocrit levels to 55% and smacked it. They would run faster for 1500m and then keep up this new found pace all the way to 5k. As for Kim McDonald he was so dodgy, I didn’t know that Ricky Simms was his protégé. That says it all, explains Mos long trips to East Africa. With all of Kenya's talent it is rather amusing that their 1k to 10k male records were set between 1996-2001, coincidentally McDonald died in 2001.

komen to get you wrote:

i always love reading this.

he was such a freak talent

peds! People said Kiprop was a freak talent too, until we just found out its all a lie.

Hmmmmm those years from 1990 to 1996 where the wild years of Epo. In cycling was commom to have hematocrit high

as 60% !!!!! Some of the fastest climbing in history of Giro d' Italia and Tour de France are from 1994 -1999 and

also Lance in his years made cliimbing times very near to Pantani records.

Now is hard to believe that in cycling were using all this stuff for faster performance while in track they didnt take anything.

Considering also that those track times of that era are incredible fast.

El G got within 3 seconds of the WR. He was 2.4 seconds outside it which is less than 1 second per KM. In other words, very very close.

In that attempt the pacing set out went wrong in the middle of the race and El G was forced to work extremely hard over the last km by himself to try and salavge the time lost.

I think El G showed that it is possible to break that record, but it would take someone else of El Gs caliber to do it.

Maybe Kiprop could have had an attempt when he moved up to the 5k or even in the future Yomif Kjelecha who seems to be a 3k specialist.

But it's a tough record and I concur with other posters that said it might not be possible with the ABP.

ex-runner wrote:

El G got within 3 seconds of the WR. He was 2.4 seconds outside it which is less than 1 second per KM. In other words, very very close.

That's not very close. At 6.8 m/s, that's more than 16m behind. If they were running in the same race, you would not call it close.

I would be surprised to find that any time on the top 20 list was not aided by EPO. Komen, El G, Geb et al. may well also be the best runners in history, but there is no way to know. And I can't really blame them, with their backgrounds, their talent, and in that era, it's entirely understandable.

Doper or not his form was just beautiful, such a smooth runner imo rivaling Lagat as the smoothest ever

no, he could not wrote:

Blitzkrieg BLITZKRIEG wrote:

Luke Puskerdra could easily go under 2:05 in the marathon if you gave him the right sauce.

haha, yeah right.

look at his PB's

To answer the OP.......yes, I believe that record is beyond a totally clean runner.

he coulda been faster wrote:

Tron wrote:

...and if you watch Bekele's races, they weren't really attempts at the record either...just ended up quick. Not saying he would have broken the record but I think he could have easily taken a couple seconds off his best

nothing is "easy" at 4:00 pace

There was a thread i asked this question how serious Bekele's attempts were to Komens record and if you look at the pacing, they really weren't good WR attempts. Just look at the splits in Bekele's...all over the place

Bekele 7:26.69 Bekele 7:25.79 Komen WR 7:20.69

200m : 28.25 28.1 29.13

600m : 60.06 60.12 57.5

1,000m : 61.29 61.23 59.26

1,400m : 61.92 62.2 57.66

1,800m : 60.95 59.09 59.91

2,200m : 58.84 59.05 58.37

2,600m : 58.35 60.07 59.75

3,000m: 57.08 56.04 59.09

1st km = 2:29.57 2:29.45 2:25.89

2nd km = 2:33.15 2:30.43 2:27.29

3rd km = 2:23.99 2:25.92 2:27.49

I never noticed the Simms / McDonald connection. Very interesting.

Querfeldein wrote:

ex-runner wrote:

El G got within 3 seconds of the WR. He was 2.4 seconds outside it which is less than 1 second per KM. In other words, very very close.

That's not very close. At 6.8 m/s, that's more than 16m behind. If they were running in the same race, you would not call it close.

I would be surprised to find that any time on the top 20 list was not aided by EPO. Komen, El G, Geb et al. may well also be the best runners in history, but there is no way to know. And I can't really blame them, with their backgrounds, their talent, and in that era, it's entirely understandable.

It is very close. It was his first attempt at the distance and he ran 7:23. Komen ran 3k many times trying to break the 7:25 WR.

0.8s per KM is tiny. Komen's pacemaker took him right up to 2km running a very even pace. El Gs pacers did not do such a good job, took him out too hard then slowing him down and at 1800m he was forced to overtake on the bend.