Doping experts, why would a distance athlete like Kiprop be on EPO at the end of the year?

Enough with the slander, bro wrote:

PrZ wrote:

Lol nobody on here is a doping expert let’s be real.

Speak for yourself. I spent 2 hours reading up on doping yesterday. And it wasn't all blogs. I read a couple of articles from Men's Health and Outside, some abstracts on PubMed and I skimmed a bunch of threads on LRC.

So, yeah, I'm up to speed.

Never said up to speed. I said expert, and reading a few articles doesn’t make you an expert. Sorry dude. That’s like writing an essay with no scholarly sources.

PrZ wrote:

Enough with the slander, bro wrote:

Speak for yourself. I spent 2 hours reading up on doping yesterday. And it wasn't all blogs. I read a couple of articles from Men's Health and Outside, some abstracts on PubMed and I skimmed a bunch of threads on LRC.

So, yeah, I'm up to speed.

Never said up to speed. I said expert, and reading a few articles doesn’t make you an expert. Sorry dude. That’s like writing an essay with no scholarly sources.

"Enough with the slander, bro" was clearly writing in mockery of people who think or write as if they know more than they do about this stuff.

Everyone's an expert on the LR Forum, well I am anyway.

I'm an expert of experts. wrote:

Everyone's an expert on the LR Forum, well I am anyway.

Hey...they have said Abraham Lincoln was an expert in law and he never went to law school. No internet, so just good old fashioned books for him. ?

My guess wrote:

My guess is that if you are not being OOC blood-tested (or are protected by bribes/system) then you would do full EPO during the "safe" offseason, then go to microdosing in-season.

Especially if you're winning or placing high in major events. Isn't the medalists automatically tested at major events?

Pajama Aden wrote:

Doping expert? wrote:

Sources?

Anecdotal.

This came up in the Jones case, as EPO was one of the things that she used.

Also, is it a direct EPO test or is it a 'Passport' case (I do not know)?

Another question. It seems that the test sensitivity has been growing steadily. Does this mean that people's assumptions/memories about how long it stays in/is detectable are a bit out of date (again, I am asking, I do not know)? Note, that the Biological Passport essentially has a much longer period for catching things than the 'half life' of some drugs would seem to indicate.

rojo wrote:

So I read that Kiprop has supposedly tested positive for EPO in an out of competition test at the end of the year. Not being an expert on how to actually dope, I"ll admit the first question that popped into my head was, "Why would someone be on EPO at the end of the year? Not knowning the ins and outs of how to dope, that makes little sense to me"

The most logical explanation, if the detection time for EPO is still short and he didn't have any races coming up or in his recent past (and I know nothing about his racing schedule) is that he needed to maintain relatively stable hematocrit levels in order to avoid detection via the Athlete Biological Passport.

For example, if an athlete has a natural hematocrit of 43, it is safer from an ABP perspective to use very small doses of EPO/transfusions to dope up to 49 year-round than to fluctuate between 43 and 47.

pop_pop!_v2.2.1 wrote:

Seriously mate? wrote:

Is EPO taken orally? I have no idea .

The best delivery is subcutaneous injection. Easy to do. But, after a while, you run out of places to inject. Watch the Icarus documentary on Netflix.

You can inject subcutaneously for the rest of your life, one never "runs out" of skin.

You're thinking of anabolic steroids, HGH, and other related compounds. EPO is not a "training drug"; athletes go to altitude to essentially achieve a training stress similar to what would happen if they gave blood while staying at sea level.

lol lol lol lol wrote:

For example, if an athlete has a natural hematocrit of 43, it is safer from an ABP perspective to use very small doses of EPO/transfusions to dope up to 49 year-round than to fluctuate between 43 and 47.

Right, and once you've been between 47 and 49 for a while, you can safely ramp up to 52 - 55.

It is not too complicated to beat the ABP, but one has to pay attention. See e.g. EPO cheats Poistogova and Savinova, who never even made it onto the "likely doping" list.

Now Kiprop provides another point in case for this: another EPO user, but so bold that he got flagged once (see Fancy Bears' IAAF list). That of course led only to a few follow-up tests. Now years later, he screwed up.

casual obsever wrote:

Well, some 45 of us discussed this yesterday. People who "micro"dose so boldly that they crash through the generous ABP thresholds should get auto-banned, not auto-flagged. Ashenden has shown that you can bump of your Hct by 10-15% without getting flagged, and the Russian EPO sheets didn't get flagged either.

+1

"Drug Testing and Analysis" has a good paper illustrating an example of EPO/ESA use over a lead up time frame to a key competition.

Baseline Hgb & Ret% are 14.1 (42.3 Hct) & 0.30 Ret%., and baseline Off-score = 91.0. Hgb is increased ~14% to 16.0 (48.0) - right up to the limits of the upper parameter, with a corresponding increase in Ret% but an actual decrease in the Off-score. Near competition time frame, EPO/ESA is withdrawn to avoid glowing IC and Ret% crash (0.30) and Off-score skyrockets to 127.0 breaching the upper parameter and tripping the ABP.

Assuming the doper wasn't glowing IC and tested, I don't know if this single incident of a high Off-score at a key competition would warrant an ABP anomaly case being opened for possible sanctioning or just further target testing? (not withdrawning the EPO would keep the #s under the radar but I would think the risk is very high for an IC positive, if tested).

I wouldn't claim to be an expert, but EPO is included as part of my dialysis therapy.

I was told that it was to help my kidneys recover from what is termed "acute injury".

I guess I'd be banned pretty quickly.

But since my last serious race was 50+ years ago, I won't worry about it.

Ask Marian Jones wrote:Also, is it a direct EPO test or is it a 'Passport' case (I do not know)?

If Kiprop's statement is even a little true, then it was s surprise urinalysis. That means it is not a bio-passport case.

Bio-passport relies on blood samples. Conveniently, the IAAF does almost none.

casual obsever wrote:

wejo wrote:

Did anyone go look at this list like I did today. Doesn't mean anything but he was on a list back in 2016.

Well, some 45 of us discussed this yesterday. People who "micro"dose so boldly that they crash through the generous ABP thresholds should get auto-banned, not auto-flagged. Ashenden has shown that you can bump of your Hct by 10-15% without getting flagged, and the Russian EPO sheets didn't get flagged either.

But, having said that, this is always a "fun" read:

"Under the label "likely doping", the document list the likes of Meseret Defar, Galen Rupp, Mo Farah, Silas Kiplagat, Geoffrey Mutai, and Evan Jager . Under "passport suspicious," there are stars like Asbel Kiprop, Henrik Ingebrigtsen, Luke Puskedra, Mary Keitany, and Aries Merritt."

Aries Merritt is not like the others since he did, in fact, have a medical condition that eventually required a kidney transplant.

I'm not saying Merritt is clean. Just that I discount his presence on this list.

lol lol lol lol wrote:

You're thinking of anabolic steroids, HGH, and other related compounds. EPO is not a "training drug"; athletes go to altitude to essentially achieve a training stress similar to what would happen if they gave blood while staying at sea level.

I'm not sure I follow your logic. If athletes go to altitude to increase EPO production while training, how can you say that EPO is not a "training drug." Can you explain what you mean?

can we get EPO users testimonials here please?

and also commentary on EPO as being multifaceted in its benefits, well beyond it's blood doping effects.

for example, cyclists claim that on EPO they can do a ton fast day in and day out, recovery is not a problem, and without EPO,

they are totally wasted on day 2 or 3 of hard work = the end, dropped and off the team.

The poor man probably has an IQ of 65, and someone convinced him that he would never get caught.

My guess wrote:

My guess is that if you are not being OOC blood-tested (or are protected by bribes/system) then you would do full EPO during the "safe" offseason, then go to microdosing in-season.

Still my guess.