Doping experts, why would a distance athlete like Kiprop be on EPO at the end of the year?

It'll be interesting to see, but surely not CERA, a pro like him wouldn't be that idiotic, but then again nothing surprises me these days. If all the cheats would only take CERA you'd only need to test them a handful of times each year. Wasn't it Jeptoo that tried to destroy her B sample in the lab?

wtfunny wrote:

Spaghettimonster wrote:

Increased erythrocyte count allows greater delivery of oxygen and nutrients, aiding in recovery. Why do we ice? Increased blood flow to affected area.

Doesn't ice decrease blood flow? Vasal constriction, etc? Rewarming increases blood flow, no?

Yes but after the ice is removed a flushing effect takes place. Think of how your extremities feel after a good dose of near frostbite.

wejo wrote:

Did anyone go look at this list like I did today. Doesn't mean anything but he was on a list back in 2016.

Well, some 45 of us discussed this yesterday. People who "micro"dose so boldly that they crash through the generous ABP thresholds should get auto-banned, not auto-flagged. Ashenden has shown that you can bump of your Hct by 10-15% without getting flagged, and the Russian EPO sheets didn't get flagged either.

But, having said that, this is always a "fun" read:

"Under the label "likely doping", the document list the likes of Meseret Defar, Galen Rupp, Mo Farah, Silas Kiplagat, Geoffrey Mutai, and Evan Jager . Under "passport suspicious," there are stars like Asbel Kiprop, Henrik Ingebrigtsen, Luke Puskedra, Mary Keitany, and Aries Merritt."

Subway Surfers Addiction wrote:

It'll be interesting to see, but surely not CERA, a pro like him wouldn't be that idiotic, but then again nothing surprises me these days. If all the cheats would only take CERA you'd only need to test them a handful of times each year. Wasn't it Jeptoo that tried to destroy her B sample in the lab?

You wouldn't think CERA but worth mentioning since there were a couple of Moroccan positives for CERA over the past couple of years (who would have thought. Lol). There were also a couple of CERA hits with distance runners during the pre-comp testing at Rio.

They've gotten a little better with EPO micro-dosing test sensitivity now having the capability of detecting within ~12 hrs after last dose. They might have gotten lucky catching him glowing within that small detection window. The question is was the OCC test done randomly (pure luck on a glow) or off an ABP flag that would warrant target testing. And if he tripped his ABP then that would be beyond any micro-dosing strategy per the Ashenden et al study. Yet, as alluded to, the FB leaked document shows he had suspicious ABP markers in 2016 that prompted some aggressive pre-comp target testing.

How much OOC testing is done randomly and how much is targeted based on ABP profiles or other suspicious circumstances? I noticed some athletes are very seldom OOC tested while others are hammered pretty hard (e.g. Rupp). It may have been an arduous game of "cat & mouse" with Kiprop where he slipped up and finally got caught glowing.

This feels the most likely to me. Considering in isolation, taking EPO off season doesn't make a lot of sense (although it may allow a heavier training load) but is possibly required to keep your passport values within sensible limits.

I've read somewhere, but can't find it now, that intelligence is just as important as the sensitivity of tests when catching cheats. Who do you target, where, when, how? If you look at the full picture then you've a better chance of catching someone making a mistake.

Precious Roy wrote:

Asbel was pretty terrible in 2017. I would guess that he was looking for a short cut to get back into top condition and thought that the odds of an out of season test in Kenya were low enough to risk it. It may also have been an attempt to treat an injury. Some in the doping world believe that EPO can speed recovery from injury significantly by boosting red blood cell count.

Either that he was doping his whole career. Nobody runs 3:26 gold medals then starts doping.

Don't they use EPO primarily to train harder plus he knows hell be tested in season and at competitions.

Great line:

"Nobody runs 3:26 gold medals then starts doping."

That's right, so his first inkling of championship prowess is likely where he started....what year did he have a breakthrough?

He was another in a long line of Rosa Associati athletes to test positive, they were suspended in 2015.

Rosa Associati throws their own under the bus once caught. It is probably a thing. See, "we will promote you, get you into meets, endorsements, make you rich and suggest you dope, however, you get caught (sign right here) you are on your own.

Rosa fired their agent Berardelli after a six-month suspension and six-month investigation in 2015.

Ironically that same year at least a dozen Kenyans were caught and the first move to indicate there was a disturbance in the force, was Renato Canova in January - the man who claims to know that PEDs don't work on East Africans - vacated East Africa for China.

No one said a thing.

China....

(couldn't login as "Athletics Illustrated" for some reason, so using an old handle.

Is EPO taken orally? I have no idea .

wtfunny wrote:

Spaghettimonster wrote:

Increased erythrocyte count allows greater delivery of oxygen and nutrients, aiding in recovery. Why do we ice? Increased blood flow to affected area.

Doesn't ice decrease blood flow? Vasal constriction, etc? Rewarming increases blood flow, no?

You are correct, it causes initial vasoconstriction. The blood flow then rushes back with lessened inflammation. Heat would be a much better example because it is just about increasing blood flow acutely. My mistake.

Jack E Frost wrote:

wtfunny wrote:

Doesn't ice decrease blood flow? Vasal constriction, etc? Rewarming increases blood flow, no?

Yes but after the ice is removed a flushing effect takes place. Think of how your extremities feel after a good dose of near frostbite.

This guy put it better than me.

Waiting on Canova's reaction.....

ukathleticscoach wrote:

Precious Roy wrote:

Asbel was pretty terrible in 2017. I would guess that he was looking for a short cut to get back into top condition and thought that the odds of an out of season test in Kenya were low enough to risk it. It may also have been an attempt to treat an injury. Some in the doping world believe that EPO can speed recovery from injury significantly by boosting red blood cell count.

Either that he was doping his whole career. Nobody runs 3:26 gold medals then starts doping.

Don't they use EPO primarily to train harder plus he knows hell be tested in season and at competitions.

EPO is a miracle drug for endurance athletes, especially when combined with HGH and some Testosterone. There are supposedly dozens of variations on EPO now, most of which do not have a marker that permit detection in urinalysis.

It's important to distinguish/define the word "test."

"Test" meaning urinalysis before and during an event is very common. The vast majority of all the IAAFs tests are urinalysis. Failing a urinalysis test is failing an IQ test. Don't take EPO/generic EPO variants for a couple of days before competition and you will never test positive. You get all the benefits of EPO and never test positive via urinalysis. To make it even easier to never test positive, train and do EPO at altitude before the big event. This is before you get to the IAAF burying your positive.

"Test" meaning blood tests. The IAAF does very few of these. The last time I looked, it was low double-digits for the Kenya/EPOpia region for an entire year. Even then, we know the IAAF ignores irregular values. If you are smart, you relocate to higher/lower altitude to bury the evidence of doping anyway.

We know the IAAF accepts bribes. We know the IAAF has bribed federations in exchange for never testing positive. 99% of Russia's IAAF athletes ran the last Olympic cycle. The IAAF profits from doped performances. It seems like, as long as you bring money, doping is okay.

Seriously mate? wrote:

Is EPO taken orally? I have no idea .

The best delivery is subcutaneous injection. Easy to do. But, after a while, you run out of places to inject. Watch the Icarus documentary on Netflix.

ukathleticscoach wrote:

Precious Roy wrote:

Asbel was pretty terrible in 2017. I would guess that he was looking for a short cut to get back into top condition and thought that the odds of an out of season test in Kenya were low enough to risk it. It may also have been an attempt to treat an injury. Some in the doping world believe that EPO can speed recovery from injury significantly by boosting red blood cell count.

Either that he was doping his whole career. Nobody runs 3:26 gold medals then starts doping.

Don't they use EPO primarily to train harder plus he knows hell be tested in season and at competitions.

Liza Hunter Galvan did EPO to help with hamstring and hip injuries. She was desperate to get back into competition after the 2008 Olympic marathon where she had a disappointing race and got a lot of crap from NZ for a poor showing. She pumped herself up with so much EPO that she had to stop due to side effects.

Who knows whether Asbel was doping the whole time or just turned to it late in his career to try to get back in shape after a bad season. But it would not be the first time an athlete turned to doping to try to save a previously clean career. Asbel has had a lot of personal problems. I would not be surprised if he has money trouble and is desperate to get back into competition to pay the bills.

Plain speaking wrote:

Clerk wrote:

Given the information we have, it is not possible this is an ABP violation.

Since everyone else here is wanking on about ABPs, they must be wrong. Are they?

I should also say, you don't "test positive" with regards to an ABP violation. Given that the news has mostly said an athlete tested positive, tested positive for a blood booster, and then that Kiprop had tested positive, the current stream of information doesn't point to a ABP violation. We would hear things like "case opened" or "provisionally suspended for passport violation".

You take EPO whilst taking a break from training in order to diminish the impact off-season has on fitness levels.

ConconiFerrariFuentesDelMoral wrote:

You take EPO whilst taking a break from training in order to diminish the impact off-season has on fitness levels.

What's the biology of this? What fitness levels are maintained by taking EPO whilst not training?

I don't know why too, but the fact that IAAF tests for doping even in this period and out of ompetition means that this is a common practice

So, Kiprop's statement says the sample was November 27th, and he was informed Feb 3rd. OOC urine test.

:

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=8797553

And to answer the original question, why take EPO at the end of the season; might as well ask why keep running at the end of the season. Discussing blood parameters and specific effects of EPO misses the forest for the trees.

The guy is an athlete, and he was training. Just like all of us, he presumably would maintain the routines and patterns. Whether he was doing maintenance running, hard base training, or whatever, he would keep up a doping regimen (one that has shown no vulnerability to detection, with all experience pointing to no risk of getting caught) just like anyone would keep taking iron or multivitamin supplements at the end of the season.