Doping experts, why would a distance athlete like Kiprop be on EPO at the end of the year?

Hardloper wrote:

reed wrote:

I've heard that too, but it seems like just another excuse to me.

It might, but it's still hard to believe he would compete clean for years and then risk his reputation at this stage of his career

just like Linford Christie

rojo wrote:

So I read that Kiprop has supposedly tested positive for EPO in an out of competition test at the end of the year. Not being an expert on how to actually dope...

If I really wanted to answer these questions, I'd talk to Victor Conte. Or maybe one of the shoe reps. Guys like that have heard a lot.

[quote]It's pretty simple wrote:

With the advent of the blood passport everyone needed to microdose their way to the highest possible hematocrit levels and then STAY there. You can't go on EPO suddenly for a race otherwise your blood values will change way too much. Using it in the offseason only is stupid as well.[quote]

Cool story.

Don't take this the wrong way, but how do you know this? I'm betting you just read it in a book.

Everyone was worried about it when the passport first came out. A lot of people were talking about it online and at the races. If you understand how the passport works you understand how the dopers are working too. The blood passport merely laid out the ground rules of how much doping is now allowed. For those that aren't OCD about the timing and dosages, they can no longer dope safely. Those who are intelligent and nice to their peers in the sport do not have problems.

Doping is more effective now than it ever has been in the past because less people are doping, making the reward much greater.

Passport Era Doping wrote:

If KIprop is part of the ABP and was regularly using EPO, this would maintain elevated Hgb & RET% and probably not raise suspicion as long as he stays within the parameters of his baseline #s. But once you discontinue an ESA, Hgb & RET% drop precipitously jacking up your off-score raising a flag and consequently warranting target testing. OTOH, too much of an ESA would raise Hgb & RET% breaching the upper parameters also raising a flag and resulting in target testing. Same result - just different methods that raised ABP flags.

This,

(and you are an expert)

because of the random nature of testing he has to take dope at any time he gets the chance (hence the end of year positive). Someone like Kiprop would have a goal of slowly increasing the Hct mass throughout the year via microdosing. How many Fancy Bears revelations will fall? Keitany, Jager, Rupp, Silas Kiplagat........Silas Kiplagat!

It's pretty simple wrote:

Those who are intelligent and nice to their peers in the sport do not have problems.

Nice to their peers?

Who could you possibly mean?

So under the ABP, it's possible Kiprop had an AAF because he stopped taking EPO.

Would this be enough to trigger a ban, or would they need more evidence?

Subway Surfers Addiction wrote:

Someone like Kiprop would have a goal of slowly increasing the Hct mass throughout the year via microdosing.

Yes, thereby changing his "baseline" over time, allowing for more and more "micro"dosing and higher Hct without getting flagged. Well, he still got flagged, that greedy bugger.

Along these lines, remember the changes in Moen's Hct over the years?

But even when ignoring the ABP (which isn't exactly new), rojo, are you seriously wondering why one would dope out of competition?

Checking my math wrote:

So under the ABP, it's possible Kiprop had an AAF because he stopped taking EPO.

Would this be enough to trigger a ban, or would they need more evidence?

No. Given the information we have, it is not possible this is an ABP violation. The procedures are entirely different. First an athlete is flagged by a computer, then three analysts need to unanimously agree to open a case. Information is collected (where the athlete was, racing/traing schedule, health issues) then a decision is made and the athlete can respond/appeal.

There would be no single test that trips a passport, at least, it isn’t reported as such. The announcement is also not congruent with other ABP violation announcements in terms of who found the result, how it was processed, and how the athlete was informed of the process.

Pajama Aden wrote:

Doping expert? wrote:

Sources?

Anecdotal.

Increased erythrocyte count allows greater delivery of oxygen and nutrients, aiding in recovery. Why do we ice? Increased blood flow to affected area.

Spaghettimonster wrote:

Pajama Aden wrote:

Anecdotal.

Increased erythrocyte count allows greater delivery of oxygen and nutrients, aiding in recovery. Why do we ice? Increased blood flow to affected area.

Beat me to it. Succinctly and well stated. More RBC's equals more O's. More O's equals enhanced healing. It's the same concept used in a hyperbaric oxygen chamber that is often used to enhance healing in notoriously oxygen deficient patients: diabetics, vasculopaths, etc.

In a hyperbaric oxygen therapy chamber, the air pressure is increased to three times higher than normal air pressure. Under these conditions, your lungs can gather more oxygen than would be possible breathing pure oxygen at normal air pressure. Your blood carries this oxygen throughout your body. Hope that makes sense.

Talk to your sources wrote:

rojo wrote:

So I read that Kiprop has supposedly tested positive for EPO in an out of competition test at the end of the year. Not being an expert on how to actually dope...

If I really wanted to answer these questions, I'd talk to Victor Conte. Or maybe one of the shoe reps. Guys like that have heard a lot.

Or Paula Radcliffe given the level of knowledge she has displayed for understanding blood values.

Looks like Kenya's bribes have stopped paying off.

Or, his scores are as off the charts as so many other podiums and the IAAF has managed to never test him positive until the bribes, or their luck ran out.

Do not volunteer information to this police informant.

Hardloper wrote:

It might, but it's still hard to believe he would compete clean for years and then risk his reputation at this stage of his career

Well, the drive to succeed (again) can be a very powerful thing.

However, he may not have been knowingly risking his reputation. Imagine this scenario: He says to his coach or friends that he needs to change things up after a less-than-stellar season. They make some basic statement about nutrition. The word "vitamins" comes up. Maybe he's just never taken a multi-vitamin. He goes to a local shop advertizing "athlete-specific" vitamins, "formulated for the extra needs of an athlete." Kiprop thinks he's getting extra Vitamin E, when he's actually getting EPO.

It's possible that he's not some sick, pathologically evil, long-standing doper. If some version of the above story is true, it wouldn't make him all that different from a certain American middle-distance runner who ate tainted meat.... It doesn't make it right, though. Nor is this possibility a certainty. We need to know more.

Clerk wrote:

Checking my math wrote:

So under the ABP, it's possible Kiprop had an AAF because he stopped taking EPO.

Would this be enough to trigger a ban, or would they need more evidence?

No. Given the information we have, it is not possible this is an ABP violation. The procedures are entirely different. First an athlete is flagged by a computer, then three analysts need to unanimously agree to open a case. Information is collected (where the athlete was, racing/traing schedule, health issues) then a decision is made and the athlete can respond/appeal.

There would be no single test that trips a passport, at least, it isn’t reported as such. The announcement is also not congruent with other ABP violation announcements in terms of who found the result, how it was processed, and how the athlete was informed of the process.

Hi Clerk good to see you. But didn’t an athlete get caught a few years back for blood doping (either a Turk, Moroccan or a Moroccan running for Bahrain etc) apparently he withdrew a pint but unluckily enough was subject to a random ABP test the very next day and his RETs spiked up.

pop_pop!_v2.2.1 wrote:

Subway Surfers Addiction wrote:

This,

(and you are an expert)

because of the random nature of testing he has to take dope at any time he gets the chance (hence the end of year positive). Someone like Kiprop would have a goal of slowly increasing the Hct mass throughout the year via microdosing. How many Fancy Bears revelations will fall? Keitany, Jager, Rupp, Silas Kiplagat........Silas Kiplagat!

Or, his scores are as off the charts as so many other podiums and the IAAF has managed to never test him positive until the bribes, or their luck ran out.

I would love to see his actual scores (Ashenden etc)

Clerk wrote:

Given the information we have, it is not possible this is an ABP violation.

Since everyone else here is wanking on about ABPs, they must be wrong. Are they?

Spaghettimonster wrote:

Increased erythrocyte count allows greater delivery of oxygen and nutrients, aiding in recovery. Why do we ice? Increased blood flow to affected area.

Doesn't ice decrease blood flow? Vasal constriction, etc? Rewarming increases blood flow, no?