If this stat is correct, then host a separate championship for people born with intersex. Similar to that of the paraolympics.
If this stat is correct, then host a separate championship for people born with intersex. Similar to that of the paraolympics.
As an intersex woman, yes, testosterone is a powerful advantage and I believe Castor knows that she has an advantage over the rest of the field. With that being said, so does the 6'2" runner over the 5'0", when will it end? The body has so many organs, chemicals, issues. How can we single one out, I can see this as an absolute. I would never wish for her testosterone levels, never, and I am intersex female.
I say, Castor, get your level down or stop competing it is absolutely unfair what has been allowed to occur. Let me put it another way, if any other female runner were to have remotely similar testosterone levels they would be banned from the sport. Unless Caster or the IAAF want to allow women to up their testosterone, which I highly down any woman would ever like, then a requirement such as this is ideal, and vital.
This is not so much bigger than us, we all have challenges, but if I as a woman have access to a naturally occurring drug in my body that creates an unfair advantage that gives me an indisputable advantage over another woman who cant and if does is penalized mercilessly I owe it to the integrity of the sport, if not the sport, other human beings to either play on a level playing field or walk away.
The issue I have is that intersex options are not allowed equally among male or female options in competitive events. I am open to an intersex division for men and women. Come swim in the deep end or get out of the pool.
Stoppit Smith = Katrina Karkazis
Folks, it is actually very simple: The unfair advantage that Caster Semenya has can be safely taken away from him by surgically removing his endogenous testicles. That would bring his testosterone levels back down to completely normal levels. He has refused to do that.
The other way is to have him take medications that lower his testosterone levels. He was doing this. That is why his times slowed to about 2:00 for the 800m. But recently the IAAF discontinued that requirement. So he stopped taking those testosterone lowering meds. Now his testosterone levels are back up again and he is running 1:55.
This article explains this reversal of the rule:
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/apr/17/caster-semenya-comeback-rio-olympics-gold
"the existing hyperandrogenism regulations law was suspended for two years – allowing any female athlete on testosterone‑suppressing medication to come off it."
So there you go. Semenya is no longer on those meds. As a result his testosterone levels are back up again. His previous 2:00 for the 800m would not even make the semi-finals. His 1:55 for the 800m won the Olympic gold medal. Such is the difference that this new IAAF rule has made for Semenya . . . and for Niyonsaba and Wambui.
Some numbers:
Those with 5-ARD hyperandrogenism have a significant advantage. To put things into perspective, normal testosterone range for men is 10 - 35 nmol/L (nanomole per liter), with an average in the low twenties, and for women it is 0.35 - 2.0 nmol/L, with an average of about 1.5.
The testosterone levels of athletes with 5-ARD is around 21 nmol/L.
If you surgically remove the endogenous testicles, a 5-ARD person would see their testosterone levels go completely down to normal. So less than 2.0 nmol/L.
** But if you lower your testosterone levels with medications, you can play around with the numbers. The IAAF has set an upper limit of 10 nmol/L. So you can just bring your T levels down from 21 nmol/L to say 8 nmol/L. Even though you still have T levels that are four times the level of the average woman, you are allowed so by the retarded IAAF rules!
This is a deeply tragic travesty of justice, in the name of bullshit political correctness.
To all you PC SJWs: Catching my drift? Or am I being obtuse?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kKdUsJU-cQ0
#NeverPC #NeverScared #NeverAWMDRF #NeverSemenya
Solutions Provider wrote:
The Other Ultraboy wrote:
So the sport is left with 2 choices, allow intersex athletes to compete only in male events, which will place them at a massive disadvantage, or allow them to compete in the women's events if they negate the advantages intersex physiology has given them.
... or, like I said on the other thread:-
3. Set up new categories to allow these people to compete against each other in the special olympics.
This is how people with other physical abnormalities are given a chance to compete ON A LEVEL PLAYING FIELD against each other so what exactly is the problem with applying exactly the same logic here?
It's funny if you think about it because the general anger and disdain being shown for Semanya is quite similar to that which was shown to (pre murderer) Pistorius when he was allowed to compete outside of his class and race "able bodied" runners in the London Olympics.
Both raise suspicion are they are seen as having an (unquantifiable) unfair advantage over the rest of the field. Rightly or wrongly, both were also allowed to compete due to sociological rather than pure sporting reasons.
The only difference is that the category being suggested for Semanya here doesn't actually exist. What is being done here is probably what would have happened to Pistorius had he won in an open field - they would have reduced the allowed elasticity in his blades to point where his advantage was gone.
Herstory wrote:
It is a huge mistake when a governing body thinks they can alter one of the most powerful hormones in someone's body simply because they have an abnormal amount of it relative to others.
It's my understanding Semenya's natural testosterone levels are in the 200-250 ng/ml range, which is about 4-5 times greater than many athletic women.
I don't think history will smile upon the IAAF altering the way people's bodies naturally express themselves genetically.
This is so much bigger than our sport.
Semenya should not be competing against women, period, unless they cut out her undescended but functioning testicles.
So if Semenya races with half the current levels of T, but still 4+ times that of a normal female, will Ajee be able to win a few? That outcome might be what they are shooting for: allow intersex to be competitive, but not as dominant. At 10nm/dl they are not concerned about fairness. They just want better optics.
This is okay and all (not really) but how about we actually catch the athletes who are actually trying to cheat. She's been compliant with all of the rules. She can't help her testerone levels. I get the issue with that. But what I don't get is why the IAAF isn't actually trying to catch those who are trying to cheat and breaking the rules?! They are singlingly out one person and changing the rules for that person. Yet, there are so many other athlete who probably have a huge UNNATURAL advantage from doping. Fucking ridiculous.
Smmsskbdndnd wrote:
This is okay and all (not really) but how about we actually catch the athletes who are actually trying to cheat. She's been compliant with all of the rules. She can't help her testerone levels. I get the issue with that. But what I don't get is why the IAAF isn't actually trying to catch those who are trying to cheat and breaking the rules?! They are singlingly out one person and changing the rules for that person. Yet, there are so many other athlete who probably have a huge UNNATURAL advantage from doping. Fucking ridiculous.
This is another problem that ought to be solved.
Anyway, two wrongs don't make a right.
bkrunner wrote:
Can we talk for a second about how this rule CLEARLY targets Semenya? There is absolutely no rationale for applying this rule to those specific events. I disagree with the rule in general, but if you're going to do it, apply it to everything.
What is particularly peculiar is that the range includes the 1500m which was not an event they analysed. They only showed advantages for 400m (2.7%) and 800m (1.8%). Extrapolating one might expect the advantage to be almost gone by 1500m. And Semenya herself isn't even that good at 1500m [even though she is decent at it]. It clearly makes the IAAF look anti-science. They've made their decision that they want Semenya gone and don't really care about the evidence. They are just jumping through hoops
I find people who can’t identify clear male secondary sexual characteristics somewhat odd. As everyone who has been to school learns, these are triggered by hormones at puberty, which is why 5-ard disorder makes such as Semenya, niyonsana, Wambui, etc have Adam’s apples, square jawlines, broad shoulders, narrow hips, longer legs, non typically feminine foreheads, broad flat chests, deep voices,etc.
Talking about intersex and Semenya being female denies the correct explanation. They are males born with an inability for their bodies to respond fully to testosterone in the womb, manifesting itself in the poor development of the primary male sexual characteristics, such as a penis. This does not mean they do not have some male parts.
The other kind of 5-ARD deficiency is what Dutee Chand suffers from, and which also affects development of the secondary make sexual characteristics.
Those claiming Semenya is female will claim there is no evidence. Clearly there is evidence that when he took testosterone blockers, his performance declined drastically, only to improve once the rule was suspended. The other evidence is of course the male secondary sexual characteristics, which some posters claim not to be able to see.
Since we are not allowed to talk about any of this properly, and are currently sacrificing women’s athletics so a few genetically challenged individuals don’t get too upset, I believe there is a case for publishing data on athletes, including hormone levels.
Semenya could of course provide information if he chose.
Reboot runner wrote:
Ovaries yes, testicles no wrote:
I think it depends on how the testosterone is produced. From what I understand testosterone in women is produced mainly by the ovaries and the adrenal gland. If Semenya's testosterone was produced by those means only then I'm ok with her having high T levels. It would be the same situation as the advantage that a man with high T levels (produced by his testicles) would have over a man with low T levels. However if her testosterone (or most of it) is produced by testicles and her levels are in the male range and not the female range then that's not fair. From what I've read this is the case with Semenya.
This makes great sense to me. Very logical.
Yes, good post.
belial wrote:
People keep using the phrase "unfair advantage." I guess this means there are fair advantages.
It's interesting that what we consider to be fair and unfair advantages has nothing to do with anything except our own biases.
I think Kipchoge has an unfair advantage; his genetics for distance running are better than mine. No fair. Or, maybe I have better genetics, but he was raised with a stronger work ethic. No fair.
Nobody else has posted this you are a genius.
Does the sister of Kipchoge have internsl testes!
George213 wrote:
Smmsskbdndnd wrote:
This is okay and all (not really) but how about we actually catch the athletes who are actually trying to cheat. She's been compliant with all of the rules. She can't help her testerone levels. I get the issue with that. But what I don't get is why the IAAF isn't actually trying to catch those who are trying to cheat and breaking the rules?! They are singlingly out one person and changing the rules for that person. Yet, there are so many other athlete who probably have a huge UNNATURAL advantage from doping. Fucking ridiculous.
This is another problem that ought to be solved.
Anyway, two wrongs don't make a right.
I thought I'd written this till I read the name!
Agree
I predict Semenya keeps running at the same level she is at... testosterone is over-rated.
How are you guys going to act when she still drops 1:55's?
ojk wrote:
I predict Semenya keeps running at the same level she is at... testosterone is over-rated.
How are you guys going to act when she still drops 1:55's?
When Semenya had to reduce her (or his) testosterone her (or his) times were slower especially over periphery events 400m & 1500m.
Let's not talk about 'he' or 'she'.
The fact is that Semenya was born with a Y chromosome and androgen insensitive, so she can have female characteristics but genetically 'male'. That is my understanding
Leading sports scientist who is a fellow south african, has actually been quoted on LetsRun as follows:
“This Should Never Have Been an Issue of Men vs. Women”
“This should never have been an issue of men vs. women,” Tucker writes. “Rather, it should be about whether women who possess a Y-chromosome, and who produce T in the male range, have an unnaturally large advantage over women who do not have those male-level T values.”
and
"The argument of “it’s a normal genetic advantage” remains. This argument has frustrated me from the very beginning of the debate, because qualitatively, a woman with a Y chromosome and high T levels is clearly not the same thing as a Jamaican sprinter with fast twitch muscle fibers, or an NBA player who is 208cm tall. Why? Because we have recognized that men and women are different, and created separate categories for them to compete in. We have NOT created categories for height in basketball, for fiber type in running, for foot size or arm length in swimming. We have female category for a reason, and it’s to protect the integrity of the sport and women’s competition against the most powerful genetic influence known to performance—the male chromosome."
So in other words, it is not anything about the amount of testosterone, something that normally differentiates good male athletes from poor male athletes in a 'fair' way anyway.
It is about the chromosome, and whether that is the cause of such higher levels of T
...measuring and setting limits for T alone as a means of qualification, will not stand up to legal tests.
And why can’t this rule apply to the entirety of events? Why single out the 400-1500? US sprinters and horizontal jumpers would go down as well. The top three triple jumpers, regardless of all of the make up and crazy earrings would be ineligible. BS rule.
Didn't read the whole thread. I assume it's just the usual garbage, e.g. referring to Semenya as a "he," intersex is fake news, tall basketball players, and throwing events.
Anyways, any indication this won't be completely struck down by CAS? Did the IAAF actually do a proper study on testosterone in female athletics this time? My apologies if this was already covered.
Racket wrote:
Didn't read the whole thread. I assume it's just the usual garbage, e.g. referring to Semenya as a "he," intersex is fake news, tall basketball players, and throwing events.
Anyways, any indication this won't be completely struck down by CAS? Did the IAAF actually do a proper study on testosterone in female athletics this time? My apologies if this was already covered.
The study IAAF has done is very weak and there is really no chance that CAS will accept the new rules (according to Ross Tucker and many other experts).