Hey everyone,
I have run a 1:24 half marathon and a few marathons around 3:05. Trying to hit that sub 3 hours in Chicago this October. I am self coached but I need some guidance. Any suggestions on what training program I should follow? I’ve heard of Pete’s advanced marathon training book and Jack Daniels. Any suggestions?
Thanks in advance!
Do them in this order:
1. Increase Weekly Volume
2. Increase Weekly Long Run Distance
3. Increase Weekly Tempo Running Volume
That's pretty much the key to success at any distance over 5k.
You're welcome.
He's right.
Buy the Hansons book. Follow the plan for 2:55:00 time.
Make it through the training and you'll be primed for race day.
Great thanks! I’ll get the book!
I'm similar to your pace, actually ran a 1:24 in March prior to a 2:57 in the monsoon on Monday in Boston. Agree with what others said, but thought I'd offer some benchmarks in my training that got me under three hours. I do a 17 week training cycle, which includes 6 weeks of 70+ miles, 4 weeks of 80+ miles, and 9 runs of 20+ miles. The emphasis on speed is important. You don't have to run fast all the time, but a session of one, two or three mile repeats once a week will do wonders for your time. I also do five of my 20 milers with a major portion at sub three pace. I'll build up so the first time in the cycle I go 20 miles I'll include 5 miles of marathon pace. Then by the end of my training the capstone workout is a 24 miler with 15-20 miles at sub three pace. So this past cycle, three weeks out I did a 24 miler with 17 miles at 6:45 pace. During an 80+mile week, that's a beast of a workout that will have you ready to knock out that sub three.
Go Long wrote:
I'm similar to your pace, actually ran a 1:24 in March prior to a 2:57 in the monsoon on Monday in Boston. Agree with what others said, but thought I'd offer some benchmarks in my training that got me under three hours. I do a 17 week training cycle, which includes 6 weeks of 70+ miles, 4 weeks of 80+ miles, and 9 runs of 20+ miles. The emphasis on speed is important. You don't have to run fast all the time, but a session of one, two or three mile repeats once a week will do wonders for your time. I also do five of my 20 milers with a major portion at sub three pace. I'll build up so the first time in the cycle I go 20 miles I'll include 5 miles of marathon pace. Then by the end of my training the capstone workout is a 24 miler with 15-20 miles at sub three pace. So this past cycle, three weeks out I did a 24 miler with 17 miles at 6:45 pace. During an 80+mile week, that's a beast of a workout that will have you ready to knock out that sub three.
Huge overkill for a 3:00 marathon.
Go Long wrote:
I'm similar to your pace, actually ran a 1:24 in March prior to a 2:57 in the monsoon on Monday in Boston. Agree with what others said, but thought I'd offer some benchmarks in my training that got me under three hours. I do a 17 week training cycle, which includes 6 weeks of 70+ miles, 4 weeks of 80+ miles, and 9 runs of 20+ miles. The emphasis on speed is important. You don't have to run fast all the time, but a session of one, two or three mile repeats once a week will do wonders for your time. I also do five of my 20 milers with a major portion at sub three pace. I'll build up so the first time in the cycle I go 20 miles I'll include 5 miles of marathon pace. Then by the end of my training the capstone workout is a 24 miler with 15-20 miles at sub three pace. So this past cycle, three weeks out I did a 24 miler with 17 miles at 6:45 pace. During an 80+mile week, that's a beast of a workout that will have you ready to knock out that sub three.
This is great info thanks!! I have a few questions. What paces did you do your easy runs at? General runs? And long runs that weren’t marathon pace? Did you do any speed work that wasn’t mile repeats? Did you do any doubles? I want to be completely committed to a program. I really want to get that sub 3! Thank you!
central_park_laps wrote:
Go Long wrote:
I'm similar to your pace, actually ran a 1:24 in March prior to a 2:57 in the monsoon on Monday in Boston. Agree with what others said, but thought I'd offer some benchmarks in my training that got me under three hours. I do a 17 week training cycle, which includes 6 weeks of 70+ miles, 4 weeks of 80+ miles, and 9 runs of 20+ miles. The emphasis on speed is important. You don't have to run fast all the time, but a session of one, two or three mile repeats once a week will do wonders for your time. I also do five of my 20 milers with a major portion at sub three pace. I'll build up so the first time in the cycle I go 20 miles I'll include 5 miles of marathon pace. Then by the end of my training the capstone workout is a 24 miler with 15-20 miles at sub three pace. So this past cycle, three weeks out I did a 24 miler with 17 miles at 6:45 pace. During an 80+mile week, that's a beast of a workout that will have you ready to knock out that sub three.
Huge overkill for a 3:00 marathon.
Some people can run sub 3 without significant weekly mileage at or below race pace, but you need some talent. The overkill point is off base for anyone that lacks natural aerobic endurance. Some of us have to work for it.
I think 50mpw is enough. Long runs are important and also the tempo runs.
What is hard in that Advanced Marathoning -book is that the pace is quite fast. There is quite a lot running around the marathon pace and not so much at a really easy pace. Also the fast repeats are almost completely missing. At least for me it has caused injuries. It is tough in summer time because you want to run on asphalt in order to be able to keep up the pace but it is hard for the body. Running on treadmill in winter is better in terms of injury prevention.
Now when I have decided to try to qualify to national championchips I have increased my mileage quite a lot and it has been easier than I thought. Four months went without problems and I felt great. Then I got a virus in lungs and have taken three weeks off. I have noticed one thing. I am happier than when I was running. Somehow that fatigue increases probably the stress level and although it is possible to do the training it still feels mentally bad. Of course kind of problems do not apply if you just wanted to run sub 3h but I wanted to mention that.
Baltsu wrote:
I think 50mpw is enough. Long runs are important and also the tempo runs.
What is hard in that Advanced Marathoning -book is that the pace is quite fast. There is quite a lot running around the marathon pace and not so much at a really easy pace. Also the fast repeats are almost completely missing. At least for me it has caused injuries. It is tough in summer time because you want to run on asphalt in order to be able to keep up the pace but it is hard for the body. Running on treadmill in winter is better in terms of injury prevention.
Now when I have decided to try to qualify to national championchips I have increased my mileage quite a lot and it has been easier than I thought. Four months went without problems and I felt great. Then I got a virus in lungs and have taken three weeks off. I have noticed one thing. I am happier than when I was running. Somehow that fatigue increases probably the stress level and although it is possible to do the training it still feels mentally bad. Of course kind of problems do not apply if you just wanted to run sub 3h but I wanted to mention that.
I don't think the Pfitz paces are unreasonable, and I'm surprised they get thrown around as much as they do. He recommends the aerobic runs and long runs (without MP) be done 10 to 20 percent slower than the goal pace. So if the goal is 6:50 in the race, that means around 7:40 to 8:10 on most runs.
If you can't routinely handle 10 milers around 8 minute pace, you're not going to break 3. That would be a problem of overreaching in terms of goals, not on the program.
For what it's worth, Hansons recommends almost identical times for their medium and long runs as well.
Wobby wrote:
He's right.
Buy the Hansons book. Follow the plan for 2:55:00 time.
Make it through the training and you'll be primed for race day.
I ran a 1:24 half in March. I plan to follow the Hanson's advanced 2:57ish plan this summer and try to run sub3 at Chicago. I can report back then, but it'll be too late for you to know if it worked.
You didn't read the post. The OP asked about a SUB three marathon.
central_park_laps wrote:
Go Long wrote:
I'm similar to your pace, actually ran a 1:24 in March prior to a 2:57 in the monsoon on Monday in Boston. Agree with what others said, but thought I'd offer some benchmarks in my training that got me under three hours. I do a 17 week training cycle, which includes 6 weeks of 70+ miles, 4 weeks of 80+ miles, and 9 runs of 20+ miles. The emphasis on speed is important. You don't have to run fast all the time, but a session of one, two or three mile repeats once a week will do wonders for your time. I also do five of my 20 milers with a major portion at sub three pace. I'll build up so the first time in the cycle I go 20 miles I'll include 5 miles of marathon pace. Then by the end of my training the capstone workout is a 24 miler with 15-20 miles at sub three pace. So this past cycle, three weeks out I did a 24 miler with 17 miles at 6:45 pace. During an 80+mile week, that's a beast of a workout that will have you ready to knock out that sub three.
Huge overkill for a 3:00 marathon.
Again, OP was asking about a SUB three marathon.
RunForFunKid wrote:
This is great info thanks!! I have a few questions. What paces did you do your easy runs at? General runs? And long runs that weren’t marathon pace? Did you do any speed work that wasn’t mile repeats? Did you do any doubles? I want to be completely committed to a program. I really want to get that sub 3! Thank you!
Usually I do my general/easy runs at 7:30-8 minute pace. No doubles. I used Pftiz programs a couple of times, but felt like the mileage wasn't quite enough and there wasn't enough speed work, so I basically used Pfitz as a base and added more speedwork and a few more miles. For speedwork, I usually do anywhere between one mile and three mile repeats, so yes, sometimes I'll do 4 x 1.5 miles, or 3 x 2 miles, just to mix it up.
pfitzer wrote:
I don't think the Pfitz paces are unreasonable, and I'm surprised they get thrown around as much as they do. He recommends the aerobic runs and long runs (without MP) be done 10 to 20 percent slower than the goal pace. So if the goal is 6:50 in the race, that means around 7:40 to 8:10 on most runs.
If you can't routinely handle 10 milers around 8 minute pace, you're not going to break 3. That would be a problem of overreaching in terms of goals, not on the program.
my target is not 3h but something like 4 minutes/km or faster (i.e. 2:45-2:49). Recovery is a problem at least for me. I will be 45yo this year and I am doing my runs many times late in the evening after the work. For example there might be medium-long runs on Wednesday (for example 15 mls) and on Friday (e.g. 12 mls) and then long run on Sunday (e.g. 20 mls incl. 14 mls at the MP). That is quite a lot running in that pace. You sleep few hours, go to work, run late in the evening (except on weekends) and have to push hard when you are stanco morto. It is mentally hard and it is tough for the legs if you ran on asphalt.
I am not saying that it is not doable. Somehow just people who have followed those programs have gotten injured more. I am not sure whether to try it this year or to try something else. Should make a decision this week.
Go Long wrote:
Usually I do my general/easy runs at 7:30-8 minute pace. No doubles. I used Pftiz programs a couple of times, but felt like the mileage wasn't quite enough and there wasn't enough speed work, so I basically used Pfitz as a base and added more speedwork and a few more miles. For speedwork, I usually do anywhere between one mile and three mile repeats, so yes, sometimes I'll do 4 x 1.5 miles, or 3 x 2 miles, just to mix it up.
I also think that speedwork is missing but on the other hand if you ran a lot quite near to you MP you do not have days in the calender for the speedwork.
Baltsu wrote:
pfitzer wrote:
I don't think the Pfitz paces are unreasonable, and I'm surprised they get thrown around as much as they do. He recommends the aerobic runs and long runs (without MP) be done 10 to 20 percent slower than the goal pace. So if the goal is 6:50 in the race, that means around 7:40 to 8:10 on most runs.
If you can't routinely handle 10 milers around 8 minute pace, you're not going to break 3. That would be a problem of overreaching in terms of goals, not on the program.
my target is not 3h but something like 4 minutes/km or faster (i.e. 2:45-2:49). Recovery is a problem at least for me. I will be 45yo this year and I am doing my runs many times late in the evening after the work. For example there might be medium-long runs on Wednesday (for example 15 mls) and on Friday (e.g. 12 mls) and then long run on Sunday (e.g. 20 mls incl. 14 mls at the MP). That is quite a lot running in that pace. You sleep few hours, go to work, run late in the evening (except on weekends) and have to push hard when you are stanco morto. It is mentally hard and it is tough for the legs if you ran on asphalt.
I am not saying that it is not doable. Somehow just people who have followed those programs have gotten injured more. I am not sure whether to try it this year or to try something else. Should make a decision this week.
That's interesting, and perhaps a different case than me. I'm in my late 30s, but I would not say I'm as time crunched as you are. I get a lot of sleep, too. And for whatever reason, the medium long runs don't seem to beat me up. But the harder, faster stuff does, like the intervals at the end of his programs.
Since you've got experience with the program and it doesn't quite work for you, it could be worth taking some of those principles and building your own. I've kind of done that this time around. I guess you could say I've blended Pfitz and Hudson's stuff from Run Faster. I think it's working, but we'll see come race day.
Here's what I did - just hit 2:59 recently after running 3:05 a couple of times in past marathons. I did about 16 weeks based on adding a bit to the 'developing' level of Chris Wardlaw's complex training. It's a nice repeatable schedule which covers pretty much everything you need in a week:
40-45 min easy
40-45 min easy
90 min easy
40 min mona fartlek
40-45 min easy
40 min acceleration run (working up to tempo pace the last 20 min)
2h30 easy
Personally I prefer running by time and effort, lets me relax and enjoy the run a lot more than checking my watch every 5 mins to see if I'm on pace / how many miles to go. I'd take a slight downweek every ~4th week to minimize injury risk, and sometimes work one of the midweek runs or part of the long run up to more of a 'steady' pace. Worked well for me and I'd recommend to anyone looking for a nice regular weekly schedule.
Go Long wrote:
RunForFunKid wrote:
This is great info thanks!! I have a few questions. What paces did you do your easy runs at? General runs? And long runs that weren’t marathon pace? Did you do any speed work that wasn’t mile repeats? Did you do any doubles? I want to be completely committed to a program. I really want to get that sub 3! Thank you!
Usually I do my general/easy runs at 7:30-8 minute pace. No doubles. I used Pftiz programs a couple of times, but felt like the mileage wasn't quite enough and there wasn't enough speed work, so I basically used Pfitz as a base and added more speedwork and a few more miles. For speedwork, I usually do anywhere between one mile and three mile repeats, so yes, sometimes I'll do 4 x 1.5 miles, or 3 x 2 miles, just to mix it up.
awesome, thanks again!!
Go Long wrote:
central_park_laps wrote:
Huge overkill for a 3:00 marathon.
Again, OP was asking about a SUB three marathon.
Okay? Still unnecessary unless you have literally zero talent. Sub 3 shouldn’t require more than 50-60mpw.