Road Racing and Training Thread, Week Ending 4/15/2018

Yuki Kawauchi's weekly schedule:

Monday

– 70 to 100 minutes jogging or routine runs, usually 20km covered and often around 5min/km.

Tuesday

– 70 to 100 minutes jogging or routine runs, usually 20km covered and often around 5min/km.

Wednesday

– Speed work: intervals (10 x 1,000m in about three minutes or just less or 20x400m at faster pace) or a tempo run

Thursday

– 70 to 100 minutes jogging or routine runs, usually 20km covered and often around 5min/km.

Friday

– 70 to 100 minutes jogging or routine runs, usually 20km covered and often around 5min/km.

Saturday

– Trail run in mountains, or race. (depends on Sunday)

Sunday

– Race or serious long tempo (depends on Saturday)

So about 80-90 miles per week. No periodization. Most of his miles at 8 minute pace. Races himself into shape. The 1K repeats are at half marathon pace for him.

too hot wrote:

I agree that there was more to it than just mental toughness or pain tolerance. I don't know if Shalane and Molly, with all their experience, would psych themselves out before the race even began. Desi was talking about dropping out in the early stages.

The pace was reasonable in the women's race. Daba excluded, all the other women appeared to run conservatively from the gun.

Clearly, some runners handled the freezing rain better than others and it wasn't in every case because they were acclimated or because they had a higher body fat percentage.

This leaves clothing choice and some unknown intrinsic, physiological capacity as distinguishing factors.

Yeah the pace was reasonable early on, but the break away by the two Ethiopians (or one Ethiopian and one Kenyan? I can't remember) was an aggressive gear change. I think you have to look at that, not just the overall pace. Same with the guys race. Kirui moved HARD when he went. I think those are the moves that ultimately led to so many elites dropping out. They answer the move because they're there to win the race, not run safe and ensure they can finish. Ultimately they paid the price because it just wasn't possible for their bodies to do what was being asked of them. Contrast that with someone like Sellers who is there to finish the race. She doesn't feel the same obligation to cover those big moves, and as a result is able to pick up the pieces at the end.

too hot wrote:

I agree that there was more to it than just mental toughness or pain tolerance. I don't know if Shalane and Molly, with all their experience, would psych themselves out before the race even began. Desi was talking about dropping out in the early stages.

The pace was reasonable in the women's race. Daba excluded, all the other women appeared to run conservatively from the gun.

Clearly, some runners handled the freezing rain better than others and it wasn't in every case because they were acclimated or because they had a higher body fat percentage.

This leaves clothing choice and some unknown intrinsic, physiological capacity as distinguishing factors.

I don't think you can state that the pace was reasonable just because it was slower than usual. Without doing a whole bunch of lactate measurements and carb/fat burning cross over point testing at some pretty extreme-for-Boston temperatures (with wind chill, and wet chill), it's impossible to say it was slow enough for all of them. What I can say is that the women that placed second and third had already dropped off the lead pack in the first 10k. So while Flanagan and Huddle were running conservatively, they got beat by people running even more conservatively. Sellers ran a 5s negative split at BOSTON while finishing more than 10 minutes slower than she thought she could have run on a perfect day. To do that indicates that she went out wicked slow.

If a hobby jogger such as myself truly, profoundly bonks at Boston because he started the race 10s/mile faster than his fitness for the conditions, do we say it's because of some unknown, mystical physiological phenomena, or do we say...yeah he went out too fast. Or yeah...he didn't eat enough. Or yeah...he didn't drink enough. The key to this is the "for the conditions" part. We all accept and take for granted that some people are better head adapted than others, and that you have to adjust your pace and take in more fluids when it's hot. However, we are confronted less frequently with the scenario that some people are better cold adapted, and that you have to adjust your pace or take in more carbs when its cold.

Second and third place wore singlets and arm warmers, the winner wore a jacket, Shalane and Molly wore a jacket. I don't see a trend there.

I generally agree with Gordon on the carb burning thing based on my one experience with tough weather conditions. NYC 2014 was a lot like Boston 2018, with one huge difference - the rain was mostly non-existent during the race in NYC. But the winds and temps were really similar. Definitely a huge difference with rain, but not relevant to my point, which is that I bonked really badly in NYC in 2014, and I think it was because I burned more carbs battling the wind than I had anticipated. I managed to tuck in like AJ and avoid the worst of the wind for most of the race, and since NYC isn't run all in one direction, it was not a constant headwind. Still, when I got to about 21 miles and tried to drop the pack that I was with because I felt aerobically strong, I got into that wind alone and went from feeling like a world beater to bonking in about 400m. It wasn't because I burned out fighting the wind solo for those 400m; it was obviously the cumulative effect of a slightly faster than anticipated carb burn rate. Apparently, I made eye contact with my wife in Central Park over the last few miles, but I can only tell you that because she told me that; I had already gone away at that point, and 6:30 pace felt much, much tougher than 5:45 pace did early on.

I have to go the other way on this one. I see your points but it's a real stretch to say Shalane or Molly were destroyed by uneven pacing. I don't think this one was decided on race strategy.

Why was Desi able to hang on but Molly/Shalane had their bodies shut down on them?

They got too cold.

Good point Smoove, I didn't even factor in how a constant headwind will play tricks on your judgement of what an appropriate pace/effort/threshold is.

I think Desi's always been a runner who at the marathon distance has relied on being able to "redline" (for the marathon) longer than her competitors. She couldn't hold a candle to Molly or Shalane on the track for pure top end speed or shorter distance races but she makes up for that in strength. I don't know how much Kevin Hanson actually works with Desi on a day to day basis anymore, but in his post race interview he talked about how usually Desi has to push the pace early to "lengthen the race" and "make everyone hurt for longer" because that plays to her strengths as a runner (and frankly, to the strengths of how Hansons runners train...Shadrack had a good day too.). She had to do that at Boston last year because she's not going to win a typical good weather race with a hard 5k kick (like Shalane at NYC) and it can be pretty draining to try to push the pace from the front the whole way. She didn't have to do that on Monday because the weather did it for her.

too hot wrote:

I have to go the other way on this one. I see your points but it's a real stretch to say Shalane or Molly were destroyed by uneven pacing. I don't think this one was decided on race strategy.

Why was Desi able to hang on but Molly/Shalane had their bodies shut down on them?

I think you're looking for something where there isn't necessarily an answer. Why wasn't Galen able to close with the top guys at Worlds in 2013 after being able to in 2012? Why did Farah lose the 5k in 2017 after being untouchable over the last 400 for 5 years before that? Sometimes people just get beat, and I think Shalane and Molly could fairly be put in that category. Flanagan just looked like it wasn't her day from pretty early in the race. Molly made a hard move to match the front runners, and then wasn't able to pull it off, but is that really a shock? It's her second marathon ever. That happens to the most experienced runners even on a perfect day. Why can't it happen to Molly on a really bad day? As for Desi, yeah, she had a good day. But when don't you say that about the champion?

Molly and Shalane just had a bad day? Both of them?

It could very well have been a clothing issue. Simpler, more logical explanation than saying certain runners are somehow mysteriously better suited to run in the cold.

Some people just being tougher than others is more logical than blaming clothes. IMO

I agree that some are tougher than others, but I don't see a reasonable way to question eh toughness of Flanagan or Huddle. These women's livelihoods are dependent on being among the best in a sport that is determined, in addition to physiological factors, on how much pain and discomfort you can endure. I'd be reticent to question the toughness of anyone who got out there and legitimately tried to finish.

Smoove wrote:

I agree that some are tougher than others, but I don't see a reasonable way to question eh toughness of Flanagan or Huddle. These women's livelihoods are dependent on being among the best in a sport that is determined, in addition to physiological factors, on how much pain and discomfort you can endure. I'd be reticent to question the toughness of anyone who got out there and legitimately tried to finish.

I agree with this. Yesterday I was on the toughness bandwagon, but then I read that thread that cropped up where people were sharing stories about how their bodies were just shutting down. Even with lots of clothes and smarter/slower pacing. People would get to mile 20 and just start having serious problems. The kind of problems you can't just think your way through.

I'm not saying Desi was just better suited to the cold. I'm saying she was the one that had a good day. Somebody had to and Desi ended up being that person.

2 elites having a bad day on the same day happens all the time, especially in the marathon. Kipsang and Bekele both didn't finish in Berlin last year. On the same day. In good conditions. If that can happen I don't see why it can't happen to Shalane and Molly on a terrible day.

@RRR, mentality is a huge difference between elites and the rest of us, but I don't think it's a huge difference between elites. After NYC I don't think it's fair to chalk Shalane's race up to not being mentally strong enough.

too hot wrote:

Molly and Shalane just had a bad day? Both of them?

It could very well have been a clothing issue. Simpler, more logical explanation than saying certain runners are somehow mysteriously better suited to run in the cold.

Yes. Both of them could have a bad day, and the "mysterious" reason each of them had a bad day could be totally different.

There are many variables at play. A race performance on any given day depends on:

pace

top end speed

VO2 max

lactate threshold

aerobic threshold

mental toughness

physical toughness

strength

efficiency

intelligence/strategy

nutrition

hydration

self-awareness/evaluation

experience

sensitivity to a whole host of additional external variables

To say that the simple, most logical explanation is that they had a clothing issue (when wearing what appeared to be very similar clothing to the winner) seems...reductive.

(Now: maybe they would have run better if they were wearing windbreaker tights or something to help their muscles contract more efficiently, but they weren't dressed any differently than anyone else so I don't know how that could possibly be the single smoking gun.)

I'm late!

4/9 - 4 mi easy (coming off a few days off up-chucking)

4/10 - 9 miles easy

4/11 - 9 miles 8x 3 min fast 3min moderate

4/12 - 9 miles easy with strides

4/13 - 4 miles easy (sick again)

4/14 - 7 miles easy (still sick but better)

4/15 - 16 miles with 4 mi tempo

Total: 58 miles... Lots of sickness and I was sick again yesterday/last night up-chucking. Not sure what's going on and the timing is horrible. ( 2 weeks before a planned taper was to start) Oh well.

I think everyone is right. A bunch of factors played into it, some runners are tougher than others, some runners are better in cold weather. Cold wet weather should never be an excuse though. We have clothing for that.

Outside of the guys on here that ran it and ran well, I thought the whole Boston Marathon was a crap show. I have been able to watch London, Berlin, Tokyo and Dubai with very little issues. Boston was a pain to watch. London, Berlin, Tokyo and Dubai seemed to have great commentators, Boston had a couple Jack Wagons commentating that didn't seem to know anything about the sport or the athletes. The BAA should be embarrassed about the quality of their product. With good or bad weather it certainly was not the quality of the other world majors.

I found both elite fields to be lacking intestinal fortitude. All the elite women ran poorly. Des won a battle of attrition if you compare her race to previous times. Yuki would not of won either if not for the rest of the elite men not being able to handle it. I'm glad they won though because it made it exciting. Come backs are always great and they both appeared to be out of contention for the win at times in the race.

Bottom line I lost respect for Boston and for the elites.

Smoove wrote:

I agree that some are tougher than others, but I don't see a reasonable way to question eh toughness of Flanagan or Huddle. These women's livelihoods are dependent on being among the best in a sport that is determined, in addition to physiological factors, on how much pain and discomfort you can endure. I'd be reticent to question the toughness of anyone who got out there and legitimately tried to finish.

Agree with this 100%

Statfanatic...It wasn’t just Molly and Shalane who had a bad day. The majority of the elite field had a bad day? And the majority of runners behind them?

Someone posted a picture of Molly Huddle from this guy's photos in another thread. There are some cool pictures in the album, but also I'll point out that the third place man was in a t-shirt with no hat, gloves, arm warmers, jacket, etc.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10217309656559183&set=a.10217309652639085.1073742073.1405847344&type=3&theater

But in support of a hybrid between too hot saying they just had the wrong clothes and me saying when you're cold you burn through glycogen faster and are more likely to bonk if you don't eat more or slow down:

https://twitter.com/MollyHuddle/status/986261541925376000

read the thread that follows

Molly: Ya once I got drenched I froze....

Trent: shivering is VERY energetically costly. also on cold/wet days because you aren't thirsty some skip bottles. But bottles also contain carbs - so can be double whammy.

Shalane: I stopped taking bottles bc I found it was making me colder.

Trent: 100% yes...the CHO (carb) solution % should be adjusted to the projected temperature, and why it is important to practice this in training.