Road Racing and Training Thread, Week Ending 4/15/2018

When one door closes, another door opens. I managed three pain-free miles last night.

Coach Jeff ROC wrote:

Pappy wrote:

No offense to AJ but RRR don't admit defeat so soon. Just because AJ accomplished his #StopRupp mission, Set a PR in very miserable conditions, and has become world famous with his "Awe-inspiring finish" is no reason to go to the negotiating table.

Jan 2019 is a long way away.

This!

What, RRR? You can't expose your breasts? It can be a liberating thing. And Pappy is right on the mark. If you expose yourself as often as possible throughout 2018, who knows where you'll be by 2019!!!! #stopstreakingAJ

I can’t lie. I love running shirtless. And yesterday it made perfect sense. No trapped humidity. No wind resistance. No added weight. It was pouring rain so we were all soaked anyway. Might as well embrace it and be lighter and more aerodynamic. I can’t believe how many good runners I saw wearing a sail-like pancho or windbreaker.

Huge congrats to AJ and Back Into It for two fantastic races yesterday. Top 25 at Boston is obviously an incredible accomplishment, no matter the year, and somehow nearly walking away with a PR in those conditions is mind-boggling to me. Congrats again, guys!

AJ and back into it- hammering! Great to hear from you gentlemen.

Allen1959 wrote:

pewow -- Are you looking to win that upcoming 8K? Maybe spring will finally arrive before then. It's a winter wonderland here, and I am sick of it. Almost out of firewood, too.

This is hands down the most competitive local race with winning times usually 24-24:30. It would take even worse weather conditions than Boston for me to come out on top. My PR is 28:30, and looking at old results top 30 would be a good result.

It looks like I am the last to succumb to this dreaded flu bug thing that has been passed around here. Ran 10.5 after work this evening, in a cold, damp wind. Came home and could not stop shivering. During the run, I had none of my usual snap, and I sensed something was amiss, but just kept going. My limbs are all weak and weird feeling. Everyone that has had it here has woken up at night and thrown up. I hope I can avoid that. Also, I have a job interview tomorrow morning (meant to tell everyone but have been busy). It seems like a nice opportunity, and I hope I can make it there.

All the best...

I read an article years ago. It was some sick and twisted experiment the military did on the effects cold water has. One group people jumped in freezing cold water. They tested how long they could last treading water. The other group they gave hand and foot warmers to. The first group cramped up and had effects of hypothermia. The second group just got cold but the warmers kept them going.

I thought about that article twice yesterday and today. First was when I saw the leader in the woman's race drop her gloves. I figured it was a mistake. Second was when I seen your photo shirtless, gloves and arm warmers.

38, M, 6 feet tall, 160lbs

PRs: Mile 5:41 (June 2017), 5k 19:42 (January 2018), HM 1:34:36 (November 2017)

Training for May 5th HM. Reasonable goal: 1:26:59 (6:38 pace). Stretch goal: 1:24:36 (6:26 pace). This would be 10 minutes faster than current PR from 6 months ago.

Weird week. Had toe surgery on Tuesday to correct an ingrown toenail...finally, after more than a year and a half. Then, on Thursday, had a freak accident and fell and landed on my face, chipping a tooth, and poking a hole through my lip. Ouch. I managed to only miss one run despite all that, and still hit 50 miles this week. I have one more week of hard work, then the taper begins. So far, I have run 2 of my 3 HM pace tempos for 7 miles. The first one I averaged 6:37 pace. The second one (this past week), I averaged 6:32 pace. This week, I am planning to try to run at 6:26 pace (stretch goal) and try to hold on without going to the well. I think that if I can do that, I am probably ready to run that pace on race day once tapered. Does this seem like reasonable logic?

M - 6.5 miles easy

T - 6 miles easy

W - 6.5 miles easy

Tr - Morning: 7.8 miles (7 miles @ HM pace - 6:32 average). Afternoon: 4 miles easy

F - 5.1 miles easy

Sa - 14 miles

Su - OFF

Total Miles: 50

Did Boston's weather favor runners with the right type of "mindset"? Kawauchi is a 2:08 guy and we all know his story but how does Sara Sellers beat both Molly Huddle and Shalane Flanagan? Are the latter just not tough enough? Or are they just more prone to hypothermia? If so, are they remiss for not training in all kinds of weather?

Honestly, the toughness narrative that is being floated around is a little hard to digest for me but maybe there is something to that.

OR - Get well soon and I hope your interview goes well.

DevinChaulk wrote:

Weird week. Had toe surgery on Tuesday to correct an ingrown toenail...finally, after more than a year and a half. Then, on Thursday, had a freak accident and fell and landed on my face, chipping a tooth, and poking a hole through my lip. Ouch. I managed to only miss one run despite all that, and still hit 50 miles this week.

Haha, what a week.

I'd say you are ready for your stretch goal! Even if you don't hit your last HM workout. You almost did it this week, and once tapered...

I think there was definitely a mental toughness part of it. A lot of people had psyched themselves out before the race even began. Staying out of the wind was also key. Desi in particular and Yuki (when he wasn’t doing his kamikaze surges) were both pretty diligent about staying tucked in. It wasn’t until the end that they really start taking on a lot of wind and at that point everybody was in the same boat. They were also wearing more aerodynamic clothing than a lot of their competitors. I think clothing choice turning out to be a pretty significant factor.

A lot of folks are saying you had to be short and “fat” to run well Monday. Based on personal experience I’m not buying that theory.

Pappy wrote:

I read an article years ago. It was some sick and twisted experiment the military did on the effects cold water has. One group people jumped in freezing cold water. They tested how long they could last treading water. The other group they gave hand and foot warmers to. The first group cramped up and had effects of hypothermia. The second group just got cold but the warmers kept them going.

I thought about that article twice yesterday and today. First was when I saw the leader in the woman's race drop her gloves. I figured it was a mistake. Second was when I seen your photo shirtless, gloves and arm warmers.

Very interesting, Pappy. I kinda feel like we were all part of a sick and twisted experiment on Monday, but never once get cold after we started running. The armwarmers - which I made Sunday night at 10:00 pm from some cheap socks I bought at walgreens - were key. The hat (bought at the expo) and junk brands headband (hat tip RRR) we’re also key to keep the rain out of my eyes and my ears/head warm. The gloves were cheap throwaways made of cotton or wool. They were soaking wet like everything else but did a fine job holding in heat.

too hot wrote:

Did Boston's weather favor runners with the right type of "mindset"? Kawauchi is a 2:08 guy and we all know his story but how does Sara Sellers beat both Molly Huddle and Shalane Flanagan? Are the latter just not tough enough? Or are they just more prone to hypothermia? If so, are they remiss for not training in all kinds of weather?

Honestly, the toughness narrative that is being floated around is a little hard to digest for me but maybe there is something to that.

I really think yesterday favored runners with the right mindset. When conditions are good or even less than favorable everyone is on an even playing field. When conditions are at their worst some people just embrace the new obstacle, others get discouraged. It maybe a character flaw but I use to love miserable conditions at races. I could feed off of others getting discouraged.

Is it toughness? I'd say no. Even the 4-5 hour marathon runners are though as nails in their own way. I'd never run that long. Cold weather and rain is just proper equipment and psychological. Both can be prepared for.

Most of the elite field didn't come prepared.

too hot wrote:

Did Boston's weather favor runners with the right type of "mindset"? Kawauchi is a 2:08 guy and we all know his story but how does Sara Sellers beat both Molly Huddle and Shalane Flanagan? Are the latter just not tough enough? Or are they just more prone to hypothermia? If so, are they remiss for not training in all kinds of weather?

Honestly, the toughness narrative that is being floated around is a little hard to digest for me but maybe there is something to that.

True to form, I have long winded opinions on this based on stuff I've read previously, and a link to Luke Humphrey's HMM blog.

Cold running impacts performance just like running when it's 'too hot' (though the mechanisms are different). According to the link below, cold weather reduces force of muscle contraction, which means it takes more work to run at a given pace, which decreases the lactate threshold and increases use of carbohydrates and intensity at a given pace. I think since hot weather affects different people to varying degrees, it's also safe to assume this is true for cold weather. It'll affect some more than others.

So, while the front of the pack women did go out a little bit slower than usual, it's still likely that they were burning carbs faster than they realized. Whether due to inexperience or miscalculation this will become a huge issue if you don't adjust your clothing, fueling, or pace sufficiently (or have the right inherent makeup or past history with cold). Especially in a race this long.

In their LetsRun post-race interviews Shalane and Molly both voiced stories of "teeth chattering" in the first half of the race, and pretty serious cases of mental confusion in the last couple miles. The confusion stuff sure sounds like a pretty clear example of either hypothermia or the classic hit the wall carb depleted bonk (or maybe both). At this point it's not a matter of being "tough" or having the right "mindset." You're just toast. People that gradually slow but are aware of what they're doing like myself in every marathon maybe didn't tough it out. People that are suffering from delusion or confusion found that true bonk, and there was nothing they could do. If anything, props to them for having the toughness to finish out the race instead of dropping out like many others.

Molly also said in her interview when she tried to cover Desi's move she could feel the lactate burn in her legs and thought they must have been flying and she knew she couldn't hold that pace the rest of the way, which is another indicator to me that her lactate threshold had dropped pretty significantly due to cold.

The women that placed second and third approached the race totally differently. They both said they had goals in the mid 2:30s, and when the conditions were presented to them they just totally stopped looking at their watch, ran completely by effort, and tried to finish strong. They're also live in Utah and Canada, which likely helped with the cold and knowing how to adjust, but I think the biggest difference is that by running their own race and going by effort they were staying away from that over-carb-burn pace much better and obviously didn't bonk.

So to answer your questions: I don't think it is just a matter of toughness. They may be more prone to hypothermia but it also may be that they didn't properly adjust their carb intake/output ratio or pace based on the weather. Since it affects everyone to a differing degree it's probably really hard to dial that in without loads of prior experience, and they didn't really have a choice at the start to do anything but go with the lead pack pace wise if they wanted a chance to win (without the added hindsight I mean, in the moment they didn't have a choice). If they were planning to run a race that they 100% knew was going to be cold like in Anarctica or something I would say they would be remiss for not properly preparing for the weather, but in a case like Boston on this day, it's nearly impossible to prepare for the once in 100 years weather condition while also preparing for the once in 5 years possibility of hot weather or once in 3 years possibility of decent weather. You can only do so much. Further, even if they somehow foresaw this weather months ago it still affects different people differently just like any new variable, so the cards may have just been stacked against them period.

Link:

I don't buy the mindset explanation for a couple reasons. First, it's hard for me to believe any professional marathon runner with experience stepped to that line thinking it was going to be easy. If you go back to high school, college, and now as pros, these are all runners who were and are described by their coaches as the toughest of the tough. You don't get to the start line in Boston as part of the elite field without being tough.

I think the better explanation is race strategy and approach. The people that did well in Boston ran very conservative races and picked the pieces up late as everyone else crumbled. The upper echelon of the elite fields still ran significant portions of the race pretty aggressively on a brutal day, and they paid for it. The top 2 women broke away around 16 I think, and Desi made a much more conservative and controlled move to the front. Kirui made a similar hard move in the second half, and also paid, while Yuki bided his time and then rolled him up towards the end as Kirui paid for being so bold. The result in both cases was that people who made big aggressive moves in brutal conditions weren't able to hold on, while those who ran within themselves and were far more controlled with their approach came out on top. On a normal day somebody usually gets away with a "dumb" move because the conditions are perfect and everything clicks. I think that's why Desi usually finishes well, but doesn't win. She runs very smart controlled races, but she doesn't usually make a risky move that could blow up in her face or win the race. On a day like Monday however, where the odds of holding on to that move were drastically lowered by the conditions, conservative runners like Desi and the back half of the elite fields were rewarded.

I agree that there was more to it than just mental toughness or pain tolerance. I don't know if Shalane and Molly, with all their experience, would psych themselves out before the race even began. Desi was talking about dropping out in the early stages.

The pace was reasonable in the women's race. Daba excluded, all the other women appeared to run conservatively from the gun.

Clearly, some runners handled the freezing rain better than others and it wasn't in every case because they were acclimated or because they had a higher body fat percentage.

This leaves clothing choice and some unknown intrinsic, physiological capacity as distinguishing factors.

Interesting stuff, Gordon. And I am inclined to agree with you. One thing, though. Sara Sellers was training in Tucson, Az. So zero cold/wet practice there. Though I do think her pacing and other factors definitely helped her out.

Yuki and Desi both have strong thick looking legs that could take the wind and hills combo together better..

At least that was my initial thoughts when watching live. Kind of why guys like Bruce Fordyce who were shorter and thicker in the legs did so well at Comrades , Ann Transon as well