Road Racing and Training Thread, Week Ending 4/15/2018

Smoove - Got it. But she did mention, after the race, that the temps were quite cold for her, noting that "45-55" is the norm for her, and that "windchills in the 20s" were quite challenging. I think the interview in which she says this is a LRdotcom interview.

Yup. Hard to run in ice and snow at 45-55°F.

She said "I've run in the rain...but usually it's rain and 45-55 degrees, not rain with windchill in the 20s." She didn't say she never runs in the cold. Just not that cold plus rain.

Rain+wind chill in the low 20s is a very rare set of conditions to find. I would venture to guess that most of us have never run in those conditions...at least not regularly. I have run in negative temperatures, wind chills in the negative teens...but it was not raining buckets. I have run in temperatures in the 30s and 40s with rain, but it was not 20s...and I haven't done any of that for a 3 hour run into a headwind. The conditions in Boston on Monday were especially unique, and I will not call anyone that ran in the delicate if I haven't done it myself.

She trained at altitude in Woodland Park, Colorado in February and March. Here is a week in late February in Woodland Park while she was there:

Date: Lo-Hi

2/19: 6-26°

2/20: -6-21°

2/21: -7-24°

2/22: 10-32°

2/23: 9-37°

2/24: 15-35°

2/25: 9-39°

2/26: 18-54°

I will stand by my statement. They were not prepared mentally or equipment wise. With the equipment available there is no reason why the weather should have effected them. Dressed properly they'd have not lost there mental edge.

Thanks Gordon for the link. Reminds me of training in southwest Michigan. 85+ inches of snow in the winter. Every morning the roads had at least 1/4" of snow, ice or both on them. With a Gore-Tex jacket and tights/windbreaker pants I never had most of those issues. Footing and Dehydration were the big ones listed.

May just be my memory but I never experienced the Bill Rogers Gore-Tex jacket causing overheating issues the new ones cause. (May just be the 50 extra pounds on me now) That jacket was great in wind, rain, sleet, and snow from 45 degrees down to -20.

GT - I get what you are saying, and the conditions were certainly very tough, but that many DNFs and/or poor performances for top professionals? Not just Shalane, but Kirui, Lemi, Tola, Rupp, Desisa (was his name even mentioned during the race?...not while I was watching), Huddle (was in the best shape of her life?), Daska, Kiplagat, Deba, and the list goes on and on. As I had mentioned here prior to the race, I knew the times would be the slowest in years, but that many DNFs and weak showings seemed pretty lame to me. Think of it--Sara Sellers, a complete unknown (who paid the fee!)--was second. Where were all of those great Kenyans, etc.? Minutes behind or out completely. I find it both amazing and, yes, rather weak for these fittest of the fit individuals.

Pappy - Yes, that is at the core of what I am saying--that some proper clothing and some mental prep (such as running in tough conditions...wind/cold/rain) should have kept these runners in contention, or at least in the race. Now, some of them seemed poorly dressed (how, I do not know, as they are pros and have people paying for this stuff and helping them with it), but all of them should have had some mental prep for this.

Have you ever had hypothermia?

I don't think you're going to find one single thing that could have changed the outcome of so many in this race. Rather, they had unique conditions that, when combined with other unique factors (which on their own may not have been so disastrous), led to so many DNFs. Clothing choices, skipping food, dropping bottles, sticking your nose out in the wind, running "easy" etc.

Galen dropped a bottle, Shalane said she stopped eating, Molly seemed to always have her head out in the wind (even running in the pack she was off the side and exposed), Kirui's jacket and sitting in the wind alone. Desi spent more time in the pack protected than she did alone in the elements. When Yuki was off the front exposed he was hammering and then he tucked into the back of the pack protected. AJ dressed like he was on the beach in Cabo without negative effects but he, for the most part, stayed out of the wind.

It would be interesting to know what the fueling was for the front runners and if they stayed on track, increased, or it fell off because of the pace and the conditions. I've run the latter half of a 100 miler in sub freezing temps with big wind and it's pretty easy to talk yourself out of eating or drinking anything.

Anyway, I'm not here to play armchair quarterback but it's a very interesting case study.

Also, I've mentioned it in the clothing threads but I'll say it again here. For anyone that thinks they may have to run in some cold, windy, rainy elements it's extremely worthwhile to check out some of the new 1-layer GoreTex offerings that are out there. Wind and waterproof yet unlike their 2 and 3 layer counterparts they are crazy breathable. Arcteryx makes on in the Norvan SL (I have this jacket and love it) and North Face currently offers one as well in the Hyperair GTX.

Yes, I gather I have. I recall at least once not being able to get warm after hours of being indoors.

I have had hypothermia a twice along with moderate frost bite once. I never had hypothermia from running.

Explain this.

How can someone train for up to a half a year, spend all that time and effort, travel across the country or the world and then show up unprepared for the weather conditions? Everyone knew for weeks the weather was going to be unfavorable. It just does not make any sense to me.

Pappy wrote:

I have had hypothermia a twice along with moderate frost bite once. I never had hypothermia from running.

Explain this.

How can someone train for up to a half a year, spend all that time and effort, travel across the country or the world and then show up unprepared for the weather conditions? Everyone knew for weeks the weather was going to be unfavorable. It just does not make any sense to me.

Yes! Yes!! Thank you, Pappy!

"Signs and symptoms of hypothermia include:

-Shivering

-Slurred speech or mumbling

-Slow, shallow breathing

-Weak pulse

-Clumsiness or lack of coordination

-Drowsiness or very low energy

-Confusion or memory loss

-Loss of consciousness

-Bright red, cold skin (in infants)

Someone with hypothermia usually isn't aware of his or her condition because the symptoms often begin gradually. Also, the confused thinking associated with hypothermia prevents self-awareness."

Not being prepared for the conditions is different than being delicate or not tough enough. Obviously some of them were unprepared for the conditions. Shalane ran 2:46 and finished with the afflications above. Maybe she could have worn a different jacket or understood that she needed to eat more, but that's not a delicate performance.

Over the past few days, I have read all the post-Boston threads on clothing, weather impact, etc, and I totally get that the cold + wind + drenching rain made for some very unusual racing conditions. And that each runner faced unique challenges. But I have to agree with Pappy that it just seems incredible that professional runners and coaches, targeting only a few races a year, were not better prepared for conditions that were forecast days in advance.

OR -- hope your interview went well.

AJ -- Did you DVR the NBCSN Boston coverage? Their finish-line camera focused on you for a long while, generating comment from the moderator.

Meanwhile, a quick look at the Boston results showed just one M60+ under three hours. By my count, that's only two on American soil so far this year, including a 69-year-old at the LA Marathon. Also, notably, a 70-year-old Philadelphian ran sub-3 at Rotterdam.

Holy crap, what are we doing here? Delicate? Not tough enough? Unprepared?

Nothing delicate or not mentally tough involved for many, if any, of these athletes. I guaranty that they have extraordinarily high pain tolerances and discipline.

Unprepared for the weather? There was no way to be prepared for that weather. I've been racing on and off for twenty-five years and I've raced in that weather once in late October, 1993 in Saratoga Springs State Park at D3 Cross Country Regionals. I mention the specifics because it was so rare and hellish that it still makes an impression 25 years later. The most miserable I ever remember being after a race.

There was no right clothing choice here. Different people took different approaches with differing levels of success and you cannot make an informed decision about something hat you've never experienced, and people have (almost) never experienced this before.

For some people, the ultimate decisions never worked out and they ended up with legitimate medical conditions (hyperthermia) or barking because of once in a lifetime conditions for a marathon.

The only real mental toughness issue that occurs to me as a realistic possibility is that some of these leads simply thought that they were not going to be able to perform well under these weather conditions and decided to pack it in sooner rather than later to preserve their seasons which, given their limited shelflife as elite athletes in limited number pay day opportunities, may even be less of a mental toughness issue and more of a strategy Intended to ensure their continued professional livelihoods.

I didn't drink at all during the marathon, the day before I drank 128ozs of Gatorade always do that the day before and big bag of salty sourdough pretzels. The morning of I had 2 cups of coffee at 5:00 AM and a small can of Red Bull a hour before. During the race after 10K I used 3 Cliff blocks letting them dissolve in my mouth. Just didn't feel thirsty at all.

GT: I agree that Shalane's performance was good, but I thought she would have fared better.

Allen - The interview went well, but I found out at the end that I am up against two other candidates. They said I should have an answer by the first or second week of May.

Sorry if I come across as being harsh on the elites, but they have numerous advantages over ordinary people, and yet an "ordinary" person, Sara Sellers, managed to drop all but one of these elites, and AJ, another "ordinary person," fared extremely well, beating many accomplished runners.

The more I think about your run, AJ, the more I am awed by it. I was thinking this morning (I tend to ponder things when the house is quiet, early in the morning) that your run might be the best I have heard of here on LR. It really was that good.

With everything Nike and the NOP does trying to gain an edge for their athletes, the gray areas, performance labs, and shoe controversies...it was just plain laughable how poor a choice those jackets were.

too hot wrote:

With everything Nike and the NOP does trying to gain an edge for their athletes, the gray areas, performance labs, and shoe controversies...it was just plain laughable how poor a choice those jackets were.

I know!