8 x 400m faster than 1600m pace with 3-min rest. Your Thoughts

If they have the longer stuff in their legs to back that training up, then they should be ready to rock.

I'm specifically thinking about stuff from 800-1200 @ about 3200 date pace. For MD guys, you can take lots of rest, especially as the reps get over 3 minutes. I've had MD guys doing longer reps with 4-6 min of recovery.

The other component is the tempo aspect. If that foundation hasn't been laid down, your guys will have a hard time processing the lactate that builds up in laps 2,3,4

Better to shorten the rest to 1.5 minutes.

Earlier in the week, they did 5x1000 v02's in 3:09, 3:07, 3:04, 3:03, 3:01 with 3:05 rest.

Predictor wrote:

Better to shorten the rest to 1.5 minutes.

Agreed. Manipulating the rest is huge. I love shortenening the rest or increasing the pace of jogging recovery as a way to stimulate aerobic gains.

Bannister realised he was ready to run sub 4:00 for the mile when he could do 10x440yards with 440 jog recovery in 2 minutes running each rep inside 60 seconds. This was one of his standard sessions: if you read his autobiography it took him a long time to get the average below 60 seconds.

This is not an easy session because the pace of the recovery "jog".

XC Coach wrote:

My High School 4:35-4:39 guys have recently done 8 x 400 with 3-min rest in 64-65.

I'm thinking they should be able to be in the 62-63 range but we haven't been able to get there yet.

Am I overreaching?

Well....this kind of session 8 x 400s is a repetition workout and should be at 1500/ mile race pace.....not faster!

Practical that means they should run 8 x 400s at 68-69 sec and the rest between should be walking easy until reach 50% of max heartrate.Running repeats the very best way is to do them at race pace and try to relax at that pace. The so called "Staying Power" is of main importance....

- The Wizard-

Christensen likes this workout (see pages 40 and 44):

http://www.ustfccca.org/assets/symposiums/2010/Scott-Christensen_Preparation-Elite-Junior-Miler.pdf

I don't like this workout and I think Christensen's workouts are too hard.

Otter (from another thread) might enjoy the lactate clearance chart on page 34

XC Coach wrote:

My High School 4:35-4:39 guys have recently done 8 x 400 with 3-min rest in 64-65.

I'm thinking they should be able to be in the 62-63 range but we haven't been able to get there yet.

Am I overreaching?

Is this coach Elsey?

They're ready for about 4:30 flat I think.

6-8x400 w/90s-2min rest is a staple 1600/1500 pace workout in a lot of programs. I agree that you probably should shorten the rest a little, but even with 3min rest, 62-63 is expecting too much from 4:35-39 guys, especially this early in a season.

Not a fan of using to workouts to predict races, but I've watched a handful of 4:17-4:22 guys do 6-8x400 w/2min rest at 62-63.

I'd expect 65s avg from your guys in a similar workout.

Predicting times from sessions is futile when there are long recoveries involved and 3 mins is long! It’s also a fact that often runners who’s training involves predominantly 400 intervals just gets better at running them without any real 1500 improvement. 4 x 600 at race pace with 3 mins recovery would be better. 3 x 800 at about race pace with 4 mins recovery better still. You might get an 800 meter runner capable of that 400 m session with that recovery who was rubbish at 1500.

XC Coach wrote:

My High School 4:35-4:39 guys have recently done 8 x 400 with 3-min rest in 64-65.

I'm thinking they should be able to be in the 62-63 range but we haven't been able to get there yet.

Am I overreaching?

It depends on a lot of things. Basically you don't know he's the hell can we.

That session was outdated 30 years ago and it depends on fast their 400,m speed plus endurance etc and getting a better coach,!

SlowFatMaster wrote:

Christensen likes this workout (see pages 40 and 44):

Otter (from another thread) might enjoy the lactate clearance chart on page 34

I don't agree with the chart. The PCR system might recover in 10 minutes but blood lactate levels will not drop to 2 from 16 in that amount of time without a blood transfusion.

I would ask Christensen about this. He is a highly respected student and teacher of physiology but something is messed up here.

8x400 at sub mile pace is a great session and the rest makes the difference. perhaps i am wrong but for highschool kids capable of sub 4:40/mile a rest of 3mins might be a little bit too long. with a good base in the legs a few weeks prior prime time 8x400 with 90s rest should be possible.

i have read that brad barton, masters world record miler, performed a final sharpening session of two sets of 4x400 with just 70s rest at mile race pace at 48y of age. unfortunately i do not know the rest between the sets. i think this is a smart session.

Hi I coach juniors here in Australia and our season has just finished. I have junior with1:54/ 3:51 1500m (4:07 1600) and sophmore 155/4:02 (4:18) but also have 5 other runners around 4:30-4:37 which one is a 14 year old. My athletes volume is relatively low with my best runner only running around 60k (38 miles) per week on average. The sophmore runs 20 miles a week but also rows for his school. Coaching here in Australia is not school based so I have been working with the junior since he was 10 years old. I am an American so am aware of the high school system.

So when I look at this session of 8x400 with 3 minutes rest. My first thoughts is that 3 minutes is very long and if you are giving them that much rest then would be closer to an 800m session. If you are thinking that they should be running 62-63 that is too intensive.

May I suggest a better session which would be to run 2x4x300m at 800m pace on 3 min cycle with 4-5 minutes rest between sets. I would also have your athletes start off the efforts at 1600m pace working down to 800m pace for the last 2 efforts so it might look something like this. So for a 4:36 guy I would look for them to go 51, 51, 48, 47 the next set I might change the stimulus so that odd efforts at 1600m pace even at 800m pace but last one as good as they feel so 51, 47, 51, 45!

Now if they have done 5x1k in the same week this is a very tough week indeed! If I were to have my athletes do this there would be 2 days of recovery and would most likely be done on grass and in the form of alternations. Example 1k as 3x200/100m and finish with 100m fast 200's at 3k pace 100's in 20-21 seconds. Recovery for this would be on 5 min cycle.

Early in our season I gave my training group a 8-9x 400m session which I wanted them to run at 3k pace. I did tell them that on one effort they would be asked to run as fast as they felt. So my top runner went 69, 68,68,67, 56, 68,68,67,67 this was all on a 2:15 cycle but an extra 1 minute rest after the fast effort.

Coaching and working with juniors is a great challenge but really apply a stimulus (stress)and allowing them to adapt and recover is what the art of coaching is all about.

Good luck!

official lab rat:

I think you are correct. Christensen has other messed up slides, including page 25 that indicates VO2 max pace occurs at 88% of max HR!

More lactate recovery curves:

http://www.lactate.com/pitesadv.html#return2

Im a collegiate runner who came off a successful first indoor season ever, running 4:35 for full mile. My coach uses 400m repeats with 3 minutes rest periodically throughout the season. Starting with 20x400m (71 avg) cutting down to 16x400 (69s), 12x400 (67s), and your workout that you posted which was 8x400m (64s). The key was each time we did these repeats it was suppose to faster than the previous workout average . Ultimately when we got down to 8x400 our coach wanted it to be faster than mile pace and more towards 1000-1200m pace. Having that been said everyone agreed it was a good idea to run it faster so that come race day a 68-69 per 400 felt smooth and relaxed compared to running those 63-64s in workouts. Other than that the rest might be a little long but hitting 63s in that workout I ended up running what you expect your Mile guys to run in the 4:35-39 range.

Thanks for the conversation.