Sebastian Coe vs Said Aouita - 1500/mile race - Who would win?

Ex-runner?

Just Passing By wrote:

fdgsfg wrote:

I don't really like your attitude, most of the times.

This post?

I will bookmark it. Amazing! One of the best ever in my 15 years of LRC.

Thanks.

Ex-runner?

Coevett?

Aouita apologists never go away wrote:

he will never learn wrote:

Wrong for the umpteenth time.

Correct is:

age 19 or 20: 3:37.08

age 20 or 21: 3:37.69

age 21 or 22: 3:37.37

age 22 or 23: 3:32.54

age 23 or 24: 3:31.54

age 24 or 25: 3:29.46

Whichever way you look at it, that is one seriously dodgy progression (only made even more dodgier by the uncertainty over his age).

Exactly, I might start using the handle 'Mouita' or 'Houtihan'

Subway Surfers wrote:

Aouita apologists never go away wrote:

Whichever way you look at it, that is one seriously dodgy progression (only made even more dodgier by the uncertainty over his age).

Exactly, I might start using the handle 'Mouita' or 'Houtihan'

Progression is comprehensible when you figure his breakthrough year is the year he was exposed to Western training methods.

I met a 800m guy who went from 1:50 to 1:45 within a year. That's double the breakthrough described above. He was relatively new to the sport and world-class training brought out his world-class potential.

sconehead wrote:

Subway Surfers wrote:

Exactly, I might start using the handle 'Mouita' or 'Houtihan'

Progression is comprehensible when you figure his breakthrough year is the year he was exposed to Western training methods.

I met a 800m guy who went from 1:50 to 1:45 within a year. That's double the breakthrough described above. He was relatively new to the sport and world-class training brought out his world-class potential.

"Western training methods"

Wanders smashes your mom wrote:

Coevett wrote:

Well you need to learn to speak English. If you agree that Subway is saying 'there is no evidence', why are you asking him 'what's the evidence'? And given that Subway was replying to my posts in which I detailed how it's extremely unlikely to get an infection from autologous blood transfusions (which most agree was the way athletes blood doped back then), then that's an argument that the 'claim' (not evidence) that Coe doped because he got an infection in 83 is balderdash. So why have you chosen to ignore that?

Nice to see some pics of Coevett floating around yesterday.

So Brojos when are you going to ban this guy? It's comments like this that led me to 'threaten' this creep.

casual obsever wrote:

As for Coe, remember that blood transfusions were legal in 1981, and no OOC tests existed (regarding steroids), when he ran his insane 1:41, which was only bettered by two runners in 37 years ("coincidentally" one during the EPO era, one during the Diack era). Combine that with Coe's questionable character, to put it mildly, extreme ambition, and interest in the East German methods.

Last but not least, athletes have historically used both homologous (more efficient and productive) and autologous (safer for health, undetectable) blood transfusions, with the former being a likely cause for Coe's illness.

Several points that don't fit in with your obvious narrative:

1) Just because something isn't illegal, this doesn't mean that someone would still use the process/ped.

Steroids were not illegal until 1975! So based on your train of thought, then surely Snell, Ryun, even Bayi at the Commonwealth Games of 74, must all have likely taken steroids, simply because they were legal when they ran their great times/races?

2) Why was his 1:41.7 insane? You say only 2 people have bettered it within 37 years. But another Caucasian (Cruz) practically equalled it 3 years later. That must surely prove he too was blood doping!? And Koskei ran within 0.6 of it in the same race as Cruz. For me, Coe's 800 time makes perfect sense. He was an athlete who showed on several occasions over several seasons, that he was good enough to run sub 46 for 400m and also had WR ability in the mile. None of the other sub 1:42 brigade have shown an equal blend of speed and endurance. Someone capable of a 46 and a 3:30 most definitely should be capable of running 1:41!

3) If Coe was blood doping, then why go out of his way to get it banned halfway through his career and then run his best 1500m a year after it was made illegal? And what about all these posters who claim his endurance was terrible beyond a mile!? Surely if he were blood doping he would have run much faster over 3 and 5K? After all, his main distance was 3000m as a teen.

4) OOC testing didn't exist in 81, but it did when he won Olympic gold (in near WR time) and silver in 84 and when he won European gold with a 24.8 last 200m in 1:44.5 (running 10m+ extra) , and when he ran a 1:43.3 at 32 in 1989. All those performances are compatible with someone with that sort of ability.

5) His father's interests with East German training manuals was for training purposes. He was eager to read as many different training philosophies as he could before embarking on a specific training schedule for his son. Or do you think the East German manuals he had translated (which anyone in the West could do at the time) had a special chapter on steroid use or blood doping? If so, then there is the evidence that no one was certain of until the fall of the Berlin Wall in 89!

6) Where is the evidence that a homologous donor is more productive than an autologous one? Where are the cases of other athletes (T&F) known to have carried out homologous rather than autologous transfusions?

All very interesting. I admire your persistence and mutual hatred (Coevett/saidipede/deano etc.)

There's truly only one solution to this. Both of them are still alive. So challenge them to a 1500m duel at the London Olympic stadium track. Give them six months to prepare for the event.

Deanouk wrote:

2) Why was his 1:41.7 insane? You say only 2 people have bettered it within 37 years. But another Caucasian (Cruz) practically equalled it 3 years later.

Does he look Caucasian to you?

sconehead wrote:

Subway Surfers wrote:

Exactly, I might start using the handle 'Mouita' or 'Houtihan'

Progression is comprehensible when you figure his breakthrough year is the year he was exposed to Western training methods.

I met a 800m guy who went from 1:50 to 1:45 within a year. That's double the breakthrough described above. He was relatively new to the sport and world-class training brought out his world-class potential.

What are you talking about? He had been a student at the elite French national sporting academy in Marseille for two years before moving to Italy where he made his sudden breakthrough. Are you saying he wouldn't have been 'exposed to Western training methods' in his two unproductive years at the academy?

As far as I know, he went to Italy and self-coached using his 'special methods', apart from regular visits to the track on the west coast of Italy that Cova trained at.

His progression might have been plausible if he'd moved from Morocco (with Morocco presumably lacking in coaching) to Italy and a top coach, but he didn't. He moved from an elite European sporting academy in Marseille to Italy and coached himself (and enlisted an Italian doctor and manager).

Coevett wrote:

Sporting Clube de Portugal wrote:

Coe was linked to Francesco Conconi. So it is very likely he was doping.

Training in Italy and blaming a cat for his blood disorder is very suspicious.

He probably transfused his own blood which got infected when it was being handled.

Coe was not linked to Francesco Conconi. Where is the proof of that? You think journalists or the Fancy Bears wouldn't have gotten hold of something like that?

What, were the Italian doctors, none of whom have come forward in 40 years despite Putin probably willing to pay them millions if they did, stirring his blood with their fingers after forgetting to wash their hands or something?

I will have to dig up a copy but I recall Coe thanking Conconi in his early 80's book. He even included pictures of him training in Sestriere prior to the Moscow Olympics.

I have also heard stories about Coe's dad/coach Peter writing about the benefits of transfusions in the 70's but I have not seen anything to support this.

Deanouk wrote:

Sporting Clube de Portugal wrote:

Coe was linked to Francesco Conconi. So it is very likely he was doping.

Training in Italy and blaming a cat for his blood disorder is very suspicious.

He probably transfused his own blood which got infected when it was being handled.

No, you have made that up. There is no link between Coe and Conconi. I have seen several links between Cova and Conconi, but never any evidence that Coe ever even met him, apart from anonymous trolls who can make up such a claim.

Put your money where your mouth is and provide one link that suggests Coe was a client of Conconi, other than an anonymous poster on a forum.

Source between Cova and Conconi?

Where is the evidence of Cova admitting to doping? It is well known but I have never seen the evidence.

"Western training methods" wrote:

sconehead wrote:

Progression is comprehensible when you figure his breakthrough year is the year he was exposed to Western training methods.

I met a 800m guy who went from 1:50 to 1:45 within a year. That's double the breakthrough described above. He was relatively new to the sport and world-class training brought out his world-class potential.

"Western training methods"

That's a new one, I will add it to passionate kissing, the doorbell wasn't working and spiked toothpaste.

Josh Birnbaum wrote:

Deanouk wrote:

No, you have made that up. There is no link between Coe and Conconi. I have seen several links between Cova and Conconi, but never any evidence that Coe ever even met him, apart from anonymous trolls who can make up such a claim.

Put your money where your mouth is and provide one link that suggests Coe was a client of Conconi, other than an anonymous poster on a forum.

Source between Cova and Conconi?

Where is the evidence of Cova admitting to doping? It is well known but I have never seen the evidence.

I think that Renato has admitted (begrudgingly) on here Cova was blood doping. But he is adamant altitude training is superior to a transfusion, which is preposterous.

Subway Surfers wrote:

Josh Birnbaum wrote:

Source between Cova and Conconi?

Where is the evidence of Cova admitting to doping? It is well known but I have never seen the evidence.

I think that Renato has admitted (begrudgingly) on here Cova was blood doping. But he is adamant altitude training is superior to a transfusion, which is preposterous.

If you want more info:

Here's the thread wrote:

Subway Surfers wrote:

I think that Renato has admitted (begrudgingly) on here Cova was blood doping. But he is adamant altitude training is superior to a transfusion, which is preposterous.

If you want more info:

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=257083

Is there any article or footage of Alberto Cova admitting to blood doping? Rather than coming from a person making a 2nd hand comment.

It is probably very likely he doped as after 1986, Cova was non-competitive.

SpArTaaQvLVss wrote:

All very interesting. I admire your persistence and mutual hatred (Coevett/saidipede/deano etc.)

There's truly only one solution to this. Both of them are still alive. So challenge them to a 1500m duel at the London Olympic stadium track. Give them six months to prepare for the event.

Give them six months to prepare, and six months rigorous ped testing before and after.

Under such conditions, I honestly think 63 yo Coe would beat 49 yo El G.

As for Aouita, what is the age graded equivalent for a 60 year old of a 23 year old running a 3:40 1500m?

Let's have Coe, Cram vs Aouita (I think Ovett would need more than 6 months preparation), followed by Anthony Whiteman, Matthew Yates vs El G, with the condition that if El G doesn't win, all his records are scrubbed.

Subway Surfers wrote:

"Western training methods" wrote:

"Western training methods"

That's a new one, I will add it to passionate kissing, the doorbell wasn't working and spiked toothpaste.

We could make a list of 'Aouita's weird progression excuses' :

Western training methods

Cleared the parasites out of his body

Moved to Italy and 'got motivated'

Didn't have pacemakers and did just enough to come second in his b races between 1980-82

Didn't know how long 5000m was until 1984

Frenchies were racist to him at the Elite Academy

Only played football until 21 and then ran 3:36 on the beach in sandals first time trial

I've seen all of these claimed here.

Josh Birnbaum wrote:

Here's the thread wrote:

If you want more info:

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=257083

Is there any article or footage of Alberto Cova admitting to blood doping? Rather than coming from a person making a 2nd hand comment.

It is probably very likely he doped as after 1986, Cova was non-competitive.

In light of Jeff Bezos, there might be an old home video of Cova shooting up with an IV bag full with the red stuff. I think you will find that the Italian Federation was monitoring all of this.