Sebastian Coe vs Said Aouita - 1500/mile race - Who would win?

Weak response.

So admit Coe was scared of Aouita.

A WR race to see who is fastest and Coe clearly dodged it when both runners are in great form. If Coe was so great, he would have won a WR or regular race.

That is the prime example of dodging a race.

So stop constantly blaming Aouita for dodging Coe.

So you're talking down Aouita's 5000m progression as nothing spectacular but when it suits you, you use the argument that Aouita doped to run his WRs and achieve his PB improvements as they are unfathomable without doping.

Nice contradiction there.

I think Coe did duck Aouita, and I raced with Whiteman quite a bit.. people here don't know he used to do a bit of pacemaking on the circuit.

jkjl wrote:

You guys are tools to think Aouita doped in '84... for what? To barely beat two unknown Portuguese distance runners? Aouita was an absolute stud and is a legend in running circles all over the world.

That video with Walker proves why Aouita would beat Coe over 1500m, per the title... Coe had no kick in a hard race. He was a fish in water. A 17-year old Ingrebrigtsen would smash Coe silly over 1500m.

Calling Coe a fish is racist against fish!!!! How dare you! Racist!

said88 wrote:

Compared to you Ventolin has written a lot of useful stuff. And I'm serious.

Are you joking???

Benenisa Kekele wrote:

Coevett wrote:

Lol, what does John Walker know about that race compared to the 800m no talent racist doper 'ex-runner' (Benenisa Kekele)?

You are seriously stupid if you think I am ex-runner.

And you, one of the main racists on LRC calling him or me racist?

Gotta laugh about the hypocrisy.

Look everyone knows it's you exrunner, give it up. The truth is nobody cares.

Josh Birnbaum wrote:

Weak response.

So admit Coe was scared of Aouita.

A WR race to see who is fastest and Coe clearly dodged it when both runners are in great form. If Coe was so great, he would have won a WR or regular race.

That is the prime example of dodging a race.

So stop constantly blaming Aouita for dodging Coe.

So you're talking down Aouita's 5000m progression as nothing spectacular but when it suits you, you use the argument that Aouita doped to run his WRs and achieve his PB improvements as they are unfathomable without doping.

Nice contradiction there.

Eh? You don't come across as being very bright.

I doubt if many people here think Coe dodged Aouita. Coe had every right to dictate the terms of the Zurich race as the guy who had just turned up in the 1500 Olympic final and won. Coe was happy to face Aouita in a race in Zurich.

What you said about Aouita's 5000 progression and doping makes little sense to me.

Aouita was a consistent 1:50/3:40/14:00 man between the ages of 20 and 22 (or 23? Even Saidipede and Aouita himself doesn't know). In 83 he was probably and suddenly capable (in the right paced races with elite competition) 1:43/3:29/12:58, and if he wasn't in 83, then certainly in 84. They were clearly his limits, as in nearly every race on the circuit between 85 and 89 was a WR attempt (and he said so himself, accusing Coe, Ovett, and Cram as being 'cheats' and 'fishy' in one interview for not running their very best times in every single race).

That's suspicious to say the least. If Aouita's breakthrough in the winter of 82/83 was down to some radical new training method (his 'secret methods'), then you'd expect him to be showing serious progression every year for the rest of his twenties. In fact, he should have ended up with 1:41/3:27/12:40 or even better. Isn't it just more likely he started blood doping in Italy in the winter of 82/83, then started topping it off with HGH in the USA in the winter of 83/84?

You constantly contradict yourself. It is quite impressive Coevett.

Coe did dodge Aouita. Aouita was prepared to race. Coe said no because he felt he may be beaten. That sequence of events is called dodging a race.

Making up numbers again is hilarious. It is great of you to make up times that Aouita should achieve.

A runner cannot constantly improve their times every single year for their whole career, that takes an ignorant person like yourself to use that argument to justify Aouita's doping.

Your ignorance is extraordinary.

Coevett, from say SO-SR year in college I went from 14:52 to sneaking under 13:55 for 5000m once I got out of college and started living like a semi-pro at 23-24. This story rings true for many American/British/NZ/Aus runners, so Aouita's progression to both an athlete and coach is natural. Even his peers recognize his talent. It is undeniable.

Subway Surfers wrote:

Benenisa Kekele wrote:

You are seriously stupid if you think I am ex-runner.

And you, one of the main racists on LRC calling him or me racist?

Gotta laugh about the hypocrisy.

Look everyone knows it's you exrunner, give it up. The truth is nobody cares.

You're a fool and a waste of time.

Mlcl wrote:

Agree, based on that video, why aren't we saying it was the Portuguese whom doped being that close to Aouita and running him into the ground in a 13:05 race while running PBs?

I don't know if Leitao doped or not but he was dying in the last 200. hardly running Aouita into the ground.

And 2nd place was Swiss, not Portuguese.

Subway Surfers wrote:

said88 wrote:

Compared to you Ventolin has written a lot of useful stuff. And I'm serious.

Are you joking???

Definitely not.

Have you followed the discussion just in this thread? Coevett is just utterly lying, again and again. If confronted with it, he just goes away, calls you an "doping apologist" or completely changes the subject - always. There is NO CHANCE just to clarify something he doesn't like. He is not interested to be informed about the reality if this is against the points he WANTS to "prove". Ventolin also was terrible. But at least sometimes he has brought new interesting points into attention (for example Sydney Maree's performances). And at least there was some logic in his reasoning (also I don't agree with his extreme conclusions). Not so with Coevett, who puts numbers right of his a... (has Ovett as a 12:55/12:35 man or talks completely wrongly about races he has NEVER SEEN and so on). Coevett's impact to this forum is worse than Ventolin's, yes.

No way Jose! Ventolin (aka/calculo?) was downright rude and inflammatory with everyone that didn't worship his great mathematical calculations and all that. He thought he was a real hot shot being an M.D and all that. You couldn't get word in edgewise with that dude and all his immature "is this a joke" & "learn some math & physics" crap.

Coevett ain't no boy scout but he doesn't act anything like that irritating ventolin!

Well it's unsurprising that you find it uninteresting the new points that I bring to this forum - such as that Said Aouita apparently had links to a Belgian doctor busted for supplying dozens of athletes and cyclists with EPO.

Anyone can see you're a doping apologist of the worst kind Said. It's obvious that you don't care whether or not Aouita was doped to the gills. In fact, you've said as much yourself.

This forum some kind of sick parody of reality sometimes. Imagine if Ovett had been chased out of Australia for pressurizing multiple athletes to take peds, especially HGH as it was the 'only way to win'. Imagine if Ovett had gone from b-level to GOAT level in one year at the age of 23 with the reason given that he had invented 'secret methods' (and gotten the 'parasites' out of his body)? Imagine if Ovett was a compulsive liar who had claimed to have turned Steve Cram from a 3:50 nobody to a 3:29 man in order to get a top coaching job (which he was then sacked from for trying to dope his athletes)? Imagine after Ovett retired there had been multiple busts of British middle-distance athletes for doping?

Do you think ANYONE here would be debating whether Ovett was the GOAT? Certainly not me. And I wouldn't scream - 'but he didn't fail a test' at anyone who questioned Ovett's greatness, accuse them of racism and call for them to be banned either.

I haven't lied about anything. You mock my claim that Ovett ran a good race against Aouita in 87 (when well past his prime) when finishing 1 1/2 seconds behind him and ahead of the rest of the field which included the likes of the DeCastro brothers and Tim Hutchings. You then mock my claim that Ovett won convincingly against Bile when he finished over 1/2 second ahead of him at 1500m (when a 5000m runner). That's not very logical or consistent is it Saidipede?

Benenisa Kekele wrote:

Mlcl wrote:

Agree, based on that video, why aren't we saying it was the Portuguese whom doped being that close to Aouita and running him into the ground in a 13:05 race while running PBs?

I don't know if Leitao doped or not but he was dying in the last 200. hardly running Aouita into the ground.

And 2nd place was Swiss, not Portuguese.

Well he died of a rare disease whose main cause is repeated blood transfusions, so yes, we can be fairly confident that he was doped to the gills.

Oddly enough, the guy who came 5th in that final (Paul Kipkoech) also died soon after at age 32. The silver medalist Markus Ryffel had a very strange career and could barely break 14 minutes again after LA.

Tim Hutchings was probably the clean winner of that race, and look what Ovett did to him just two years later.

Coevett wrote:

I haven't lied about anything. You mock my claim that Ovett ran a good race against Aouita in 87 (when well past his prime) when finishing 1 1/2 seconds behind him and ahead of the rest of the field which included the likes of the DeCastro brothers and Tim Hutchings. You then mock my claim that Ovett won convincingly against Bile when he finished over 1/2 second ahead of him at 1500m (when a 5000m runner). That's not very logical or consistent is it Saidipede?

Just changing the subject - AS ALWAYS.

You have lied, in this thread, definitely - and in many others as well. But it's impossible to clarify it, because you just change the subject, ALWAYS. Never ever a single word to the point adressed to you (in this thread mainly that the Koblenz 86 race was not a "tactical" race which Ovett won with his customary sprint (which you claimed it was), but a pure 100% time-trial in which he faded badly in the last 300m), but just a response completely out of context - ALWAYS.

I have never ever defended Aouita in any way. I have just corrected wrong statements. You need correct facts if you really want to prove something, but you even can't grasp this. On the basis of wrong facts you can't prove anything.

You're a ghastly character Saidipede. You think it's of the utmost importance that I get my 'facts right' about a Steve Ovett race in 86, in which he undeniably ran 3:33 and beat Abdi Bile, but have never questioned the fact that Aouita has been linked to a Belgian doctor caught supplying peds to dozens of athletes and cyclists (most of whom were caught themselves) and known as 'Doctor Syringe'.

I never claimed to have watched the Ovett race. Maybe I did watch it at the time, but I can't remember because I would have been 15 and it was 30 odd years ago. All I said was it showed Ovett was still a fine 1500m runner in 86, despite being past his best and having moved up to the 5000m. I never said it was a tactical race, I said it 'sounds like it was a decent paced race with Ovett pulling away from Bile'. If you've watched the race and can remember it clearly, fair enough, but I haven't lied about anything, and to beat Bile by over half-a-second over 1500m in 86 does show that Ovett wasn't a washed up bum like you and others try to present him as post LA. He ran two 1500 races on the circuit in 1986 and ran 3:33 and 3:34, ending the season ranked as 8th best in the world (only 0.07 behind Steve Scott).

I also don't believe you watched that race or can remember it clearly after 30 years. If you have the video, then upload it to YouTube.

jkjl wrote:

That video with Walker proves why Aouita would beat Coe over 1500m, per the title... Coe had no kick in a hard race. He was a fish in water. A 17-year old Ingrebrigtsen would smash Coe silly over 1500m.

LOL. A terrible attempt at trolling.

Coe was 19 in that video against Walker, still a kid who hadn't developed physically. It was 3 years before his world records.

Saying Coe had no kick in a hard race is like saying Daniel Day Lewis isn't a versatile actor! Coe is known primarily for his kick in a hard race.

In the 84 Olympic final he ran a last 200 of 25.7 and last 100 of 12.6 (his 7th race in 9 days) in a 3:32.5 race, less than 2 secs outside the WR.

A few weeks later he produced an even better kick, 25.7, 12.5 in a 3:32.3 in Zurich.

He even kicked with a 13.1 at the end of his mile WR in Brussels 81.

Aouita was not the subject at all - can't you grasp this, you completely mad man? Aouita might be a killer, a mass morderer, a pedophile - I don't know and I don't have anything to do with it. I have never defended him, stop talking that I did.

How many times should I link to your lie? It was not the point hat Ovett has won some race. You have written (in this thread) that he has won the race easily from the pack with his great sprint finish. And for sure impliying that in a time trial definitely could have run (much) faster. This was a pure lie - you havn't seen the race at all and you can't remember it at all. You have just lied (as so often). I have informed you how the race unfolded (and to you unbelievable stupid question if I have seen it: for sure, how on earth I could give you detailed infos about he race otherwise?). Such races are not described that detailed in the magazines (at least not in the ones I have). And for sure your last deflection: I probably also havn't seen the race, correct? For sure I have, otherwise I wouldn't have talked about it. And you know this. Now I have to put the race in YouTube before you believe me? Than you would agree to be a pure liar? You would not agree, your history on this board has shown this clearly.

You are very close now to find out the true 1984 5000m Olympic champion. Tim Hutchings was the real winner, and Ovett has beaten Hutchings two years later. Now it's just one more step Coevett and you got the answer...

Josh Birnbaum wrote:

So admit Coe was scared of Aouita.

A WR race to see who is fastest and Coe clearly dodged it when both runners are in great form. If Coe was so great, he would have won a WR or regular race.

That is the prime example of dodging a race.

No, I don't think that is the case at all. There are always 2 sides to a story, and it would appear that they both wanted different things from the race.

Coe was always running in the Zurich 1500m and after his win in LA, he wanted to go for a WR, which the meet director, Bruegger, was keen to organise/see. This was the first time Coe had been anywhere close to WR form for 3 years, and he was also carrying a foot injury which he was concerned might not allow him to carry on beyond the Zurich meet (and indeed, it didn't) and he didn't want to squander an opportunity that may never arise again. Considering all the illness and injury problems and the difficulties he'd had leading up to LA, I think he was entitled to a WR attempt.

Aouita had a habit of chopping and changing his mind over what event (distance) he would choose to run at a meet. After Coe's Olympic win and Aouita's gold over 5000m, Aouita had everything to gain in racing Coe over 1500m, and nothing to lose. Coe was in the opposite situation. Thus, when Aouita asked to enter the 1500m in Zurich, relatively late in the day, thus scuppering Coe's plans, Coe stated that he would run against Aouita, but he would have to forego any attempt at going for a WR, as he wasn't prepared to do all the work once the pacers dropped out, only to draft Aouita all the way and possibly get out kicked at the end.

When Bruegger asked Aouita if he'd be prepared to pace the 3rd lap, he (quite rightly) declined. Thus neither were prepared to be part of a record attempt which would require one to lead for the other. At this point Bruegger, either out of loyalty or something else, decided that he would rather see Coe go for a WR than a slow tactical cat and mouse affair. Thus Coe stayed in the 1500m and Aouita ran in the mile. One also has to ask that if Aouita was so put out by it, then he could easily have boycotted the event rather than run a different event. That would indicate to me that perhaps money was another factor involved for both men.

The ironic thing is that Bruegger was ill on the night, didn't attend the meet, and gave pacing arrangements to someone else to sort out. Some bright spark thought it would be good to give pacing duties to Robinson, who preceded to run a 54.9 (spot on) and then a 60.9! That ended any chance of a WR. Aouita's mile was also hampered by poor pacing.