Sebastian Coe vs Said Aouita - 1500/mile race - Who would win?

you are a fool wrote:

Just think - El G was loaded up with EPO like it probably still leaves an aroma in every stadium he ever competed in, and he had teammates willing to pace for him in finals too, yet he only ran half-a-second faster than Coe in the Olympic final (and lost the other).

You have no idea what you're talking about. El Guerrouj beat Coe's time by a couple tenths of a second when he lost to Ngeny, who set the current record of 3:32.07. I'm surprised that someone who claims to be familiar with the history of the sport doesn't even know who took Coe's Olympic record. Hint: it's the same guy who bested his 1000m WR.

You're spot on - it was 2 tenths of a second (3:32.32/3:32.53).

Who cares? I stopped watching athletics around 1993, like millions of others, when I realized what I was watching was a sham procession of doped up African cheats.

Oh, another near certain EPO cheat has the Olympic record (and Coe's 1000m WR, and Coe should still be the WR holder).

So when EPO coming out of his eyeballs El G doesn't have EPO coming out of their eyeballs teammates to pace for him, he can only run 2 tenths of a second faster than (arguably post prime) Coe, despite having the benefit of chasing another runner with EPO coming out of his eyeballs.

Happy now?

Are we going to ignore the fact steroids and blood doping was also prevalent in the 1980's? Probably all the Americans were on it with regards to steroids.

Benefits of steroids for one could have easily assisted Coe and Ovett with their training and recovery.

Coe's 800m WR is highly suspicious.

Der Kenianer wrote:

Are we going to ignore the fact steroids and blood doping was also prevalent in the 1980's? Probably all the Americans were on it with regards to steroids.

Benefits of steroids for one could have easily assisted Coe and Ovett with their training and recovery.

Coe's 800m WR is highly suspicious.

The thing is, even thought there's a mountain more circumstantial evidence that 90's Africans were doping, when you guys say 'steroids were available in the 80's', me and Deano and others actually try to rebutt your 'arguments' (or rather unfounded claims), instead of simply saying 'did Coe fail a test?' etc.

Steroids would assist with training and recovery.

O.K., but they would also add muscle mass to a guy like Coe who was one of the lightest in history and also (by all accounts) running far less miles than even his 800m rivals (whilst also pioneering the use of weight training).

Steroids actually add muscle mass even without lifting weights.

Compare Coe or Ovett to the likes of Beyer. I bett the added muscle mass for Beyer wasn't optimal, but the GDR scientists couldn't even work out in the 80's how to entirely get the benefits of steroids without the additional excessive mass.

Then people point to Dieter Baumann, a 5000m runner, for proof that 115lb distance runners can take streroids and still look skinny. Actually, Baumann did have defined muscle compared to most distance runners. He probably ran twice as many miles as Coe, and probably lifted no weights using the steroids for recovery from hard sessions, yet still ended up with far more muscle than Coe who would lift weights regularly in full view of other gym members?? Hmmm.

Baumann is on the left in this picture :

Try to make an argument that doesn't really boil down to the assumption that 'everybody cheats!' and maybe I'll listen. This is the last time I waste my time responding to a non-argument.

God, you are so annoying with you bias.

Coevett wrote:

Actually, Baumann did have defined muscle compared to most distance runners. He probably ran twice as many miles as Coe, and probably lifted no weights using the steroids for recovery from hard sessions, yet still ended up with far more muscle than Coe who would lift weights regularly in full view of other gym members?? Hmmm.

probably, probably. So you have zero evidence.

And it's widely known (except to you, obviously) that Coe ran a lot more miles than what usually said.

Coevett wrote:

Actually, Baumann did have defined muscle compared to most distance runners.

Do you want Baumannesque muscles? Here you are:

Nice biceps and quads on your skinny Coe:

Wow! Look at the pecs and biceps on Ovett:

Aouita was the one on a cocktail of EPO and steroids, you say. Well, what was Crammy on then, according to your Baumannesque physique logic?

Waiting for your reply.

PS: I am not saying any of the English runner doped. I don't know. You don't know.

I think you have a valid point.

There isn't any evidence to prove Coe or any other GB runners were using androgens. The evidence and proof of prevalent androgen use of the 1980s comes from East Germany & the Soviet block nations.

This is unrefuted by documents of the State-sponsored doping programs that the athletes from these nations were utilizing. We now know what types of androgens they were using, the schedules, the washout periods and the expected performance improvement in the various events & discipline. There's also documented cases of some top athletes testing positive for anabolic steroids (and stimulants in a few cases) as well as the Soviet Union's top female 1500 meter runner banned for refusing a drug test.

There isn't any shred of evidence like this coming out of GB during that time period. Of course, some people will rebut and say "well...it's doesn't matter because everyone else was doping back then." I say that's pure conjecture and speculation, and I would prefer to see some evidence before casting aspersions on athlete(s).

A couple of good reads:

Der Kenianer wrote:

Are we going to ignore the fact steroids and blood doping was also prevalent in the 1980's? Probably all the Americans were on it with regards to steroids.

Benefits of steroids for one could have easily assisted Coe and Ovett with their training and recovery.

Coe's 800m WR is highly suspicious.

Really?

Please list all the known cases of men caught or admitting to steroid use or blood doping in the middle distances during the 70's and 80's to show how prevalent it was?

We have plenty of case studies of sprinters and throwers from the era using steroids. We have a couple of cases of long distance Finnish (10000m) runners using blood transfusions (which weren't actually made illegal until 1985) and a few Italian distance runners admitting to (or being outed by their coach) dabbling with blood doping in the early 80's.

But who were all the 800 and 1500 guys that participated in either or both practices?

Are you suggesting that sprinters and throwers were tested and middle distance guys weren't?

Why are all the known cases of blood dopers long distance runners? Coincidence?

The general consensus in the late 70's was that steroids helped power events and women, while they offered little or nothing to help middle and distance runners. Now we know that this is not quite the case, but I cannot recall any articles, rumours or studies from the time that triumphed the benefits of steroids for 1500m runners.

Perhaps we could compare the number of UK and Moroccan middle distance runners who were banned for doping since 1980.

And what makes Coe's (2) 800m world records 'highly suspicious?'

Coevett wrote:

Actually, Baumann did have defined muscle compared to most distance runners. He probably ran twice as many miles as Coe, and probably lifted no weights using the steroids for recovery from hard sessions, yet still ended up with far more muscle than Coe who would lift weights regularly in full view of other gym members?? Hmmm.

Exactly. When Arnold saw this he decided: "No chance for Mr Universum anymore - maybe I should go into politics!"

:

the guy who put Arnold to shame wrote:

Coevett wrote:

Actually, Baumann did have defined muscle compared to most distance runners. He probably ran twice as many miles as Coe, and probably lifted no weights using the steroids for recovery from hard sessions, yet still ended up with far more muscle than Coe who would lift weights regularly in full view of other gym members?? Hmmm.

Exactly. When Arnold saw this he decided: "No chance for Mr Universum anymore - maybe I should go into politics!"

https://www.google.de/search?biw=1112&bih=721&tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=LmBPXMWiHsvIwQK0-YmQDQ&q=dieter+baumann+1998&oq=dieter+baumann+1998&gs_l=img.3...20652.23808..24571...0.0..0.84.603.8......1....1..gws-wiz-img.......0i24j0j0i30j0i5i30.ml_qZuoltAQ#imgrc=_tSj8oB14k8-HM

:

So what elite road race was the 'Mr Universum'? I wasn't aware Arnie was a distance runner.

Oh, you're a flid and you think because Baumann didn't look like the world's greatest steroid pumped bodybuilder that it proves Coe doped?

First of all, I was criticizing the Baumannesque physique logic which is regularly used here.

Now you're posting hand-picked photos of Cram, Coe, and Ovett to prove what? That they were as muscular as Baumann, a long distance runner? When Cram, Coe, and Ovett were all pioneers of weight training for middle-distance runners?

And I don't find your photos particularly convincing. Do you think Coe should have NO quads, Ovett NO pec muscles? And Aouita does look to have more hard muscle than Cram in that photo. Cram clearly had a much bigger frame (and not just height) than Aouita.

And again, the reason I claim Aouita was likely on a 'cocktail of hgh and steroids' was because

1/ he went from a 1:50/3:40/14:00 runner almost in the space of one year after moving to Italy (in the summer) and spending winters in the USA, exactly the time the new HGH had become widely available.

2/ Several Australian athletes made claims he was pressurizing them to take peds, especially HGH which he particularly recommended, because 'it was the only way to win'.

3/ One of his doctors, the Belgian known as 'Doctor Syringe' , was busted for supplying dozens of runners and cyclists peds, including EPO.

4/ Aouita was the first great runner from Morocco, a country which has undeniably been subsequently stained by probably the worst doping record in middle and long-distance of any (except Kenya more recently).

Your whole argument about the Brits comes down to '- steroids were available in the 80's', and of course the tried and tested - 'it's racists to think Africans cheat and non-Africans don't'.

Coevett wrote:

Your whole argument about the Brits comes down to '- steroids were available in the 80's', and of course the tried and tested - 'it's racists to think Africans cheat and non-Africans don't'.

I have never said that.

I have always been a fan of Coe (as an athlete).

Coevett wrote:

So what elite road race was the 'Mr Universum'? I wasn't aware Arnie was a distance runner.

Oh, you're a flid and you think because Baumann didn't look like the world's greatest steroid pumped bodybuilder that it proves Coe doped?

You didn't got it. After having no chance anymore against all those doped Africans, Baumann decided to try it to become Mr Universum. When Arnold saw the new challenger he went into politics.

Rumours have it that Kiprop also tries to do the small transition from running to be successful in body building. He got first good results:

:

Compare this muscle monster with the gracile figure of Coe!

Coevett wrote:

Blacko wrote:

Coevett has excuses for all the white runners!

Always :)

So the Brojos allow a Kenyan American elite runner to openly spew anti-white racism and doping apologism of the most extreme and consistant kind?

+1

Your ignorance is inexcusable. You know next to nothing about athletics outside of British track and field in the 1980s, yet speak with the authority of someone who has inside information and close connections to professional athletes.

What do you actually know about Ngeny other than that he was Kenyan and beat your hero Coe over 1000m? You are so quick to assume that successful Africans are dirty even when you are not familiar with them. I have never considered you a racist, but some of the things you say are starting to make me wonder. No clean African has broken 3:33? Really? And yet you believe your British idols were capable of much faster than 3:29? What about your lack of skepticism regarding Jakob Ingebrigtsen? Are you willing to give the same benefit of the doubt to someone like Selemon Barega? I doubt it.

On Noah Ngeny, he trained under Kim McDonald, who had previously coached guys like Peter Elliott, Steve Ovett, and John Walker. Several non-Kenyan athletes that were part of Kim's group at the time have said they do not believe Noah was doping. Neither of us actually knows whether he was clean or not, but the words of his teammates mean a lot more to me than the uninformed opinion of someone who has a history of being dishonest and can't accept that Sebastian Coe isn't the fastest middle distance runner of all time.

Happy now?

I know that there has been suspicion raised over Ngeny time and time again here. The idea that the African elites in the 90's were not doping is something I haven't heard from anybody else claiming to be connected to elite track at the time. His 'car accident' and subsequent decline, including a strange affair with the Kenyan selectors, is suspicious. As it happens, I've several times said that Ngeny was more talented than El G.

Did a GDR female ever break 50 seconds for the 400m clean? Am I racist for thinking perhaps not?

Am I racist for doubting whether a Kenyan has ran under 3:33 clean, in the light of countless busts, which last year's array of (including Kiprop's) might just be a foretaste of what's coming with better testing?

I think Coe and the rest could have ran faster than 3:29. What has that got to do with anything? Does that mean that obviously a country of 1.4 billion like China could produce runners faster than 3:33? Well, no, because the national record of China is 3:36. Nigeria has a population three times greater than Kenya and a similar infrastructure I suppose and guess what their national record is? Well as you're an expert, you'd know that it's 3:42.

If British athletics had experienced the doping scandals that Kenya is and has been experiencing, I would have no faith in any British athletes at this point and I'd stick to my hobby jogging as far as love of running is concerned.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but either you have purposely posted blatant falsehoods or are demonstrating a clear case of ‘pot, kettle, black!?’

Kim McDonald was never the coach of Steve Ovett. Ever! Steve was coached by Harry Wilson for his entire career. Kim McDonald was an athlete who competed in the same era as Ovett, with limited success. Yes, he did coach Peter Elliott from c. 1986, and he worked alongside Dieter Hogen, an athlete from the GDR, who was from the same training stable as Beyer (on Stasi lists for being on a state sponsored doping programme) and Straub. He was also the husband of Uta Pippig, a German distance runner who was banned for PED use whilst married to Hogen.

Hogen and McDonanald were one of the first ‘Western’ duos to set up training camps/influence in Kenya in the early 90’s, along with the Italian doctors and others.

I would also be interested to know just who amongst Ngeny’s peers have gone on record as stating they ‘didn’t believe him to be doping’.

Have to say his career trajectory was very similar to that of Komen’s: meteoric rise followed by a dramatic and rapid fall.

Somehow the drop in form in 2001, followed by a withdrawal from the Kenyan World Champs that year at the 11th hour, and then his subsequent car accident that was able to prevent him running 2:11 for 1000m and 3:43 miles, but not bad enough to run 3:32’s and 3:33’s for a couple more seasons, just doesn’t cut the mustard.

Where is your evidence Komen or Ngeny doped?

If you're saying they doped, then it is as easy to say Coe doped. We could say Coe's quick success once he entered the athletics world is suspicious especially saying running 3:48 mile WR as "quite easy".

How come no British runner is able to run close to the times of Coe or Ovett in the last 20 years given how far training and technological advances we have made? Definitely suspicious.

See how easy it is to throw stones?