Sebastian Coe vs Said Aouita - 1500/mile race - Who would win?

not sure wrote:

ukathleticscoach wrote:

3:29.77 vs 3:29.46

Unlikely ignoring that Coe ran 3:29 when past his best.

If .31 was the true difference between them he would just draft of Aouita and use his superior speed to out- kick him

Even in a race with pacemakers Aouita would be left at the front with 1 lap to go

Not sure about that. I just watched Aouita winning the 800m bronze medal in Seoul behind Cruz and Ereng neither of whom I think Coe could have beaten in a Olympic championship race over 800m. To top it off Aouita seemed to have his leg in plaster so he must have been carrying a heavy injury. Just imagine Bekele or Farah moving down to 800m to win a major bronze behind somone like Rudisha and Amos. Unreal though that may seem, that is effectively what Aouita did in 1988 and it was a diaspointing championship by his standards.

You are way off the mark in your analysis of the Seoul 800m. Cruz wasn’t anywhere near the athlete he was in 84, not even as good as he had been in 85!

Ereng never broke 1:43 in his career, and had been beaten twice by a 31 year old Coe in the months before the Seoul final. A peak Coe, capable of 1:41.7, would have beaten both in the form they displayed in Seoul.

That is not to say that Aouita didn’t perform a magnificent achievement in winning a bronze over 800m, but he wouldn’t have medalled in the LA final, and he never displayed the 45.5 400/ 1:41 800 ability to challenge a peak Coe over the 2 laps.

Aouita was injured in that 800m final and he was definitely not an 800m runner half his career. He focused on the 1500m-5000m, with a steeple and a 10000m in there. Coe in 1981 form and probably 1984 would have won the 1988 800m final, whereas Aouita at top form would have challenged for the win and would surely have dominated the 1500 and 5000m. That's not to say he was clean but just that when healthy he was great. Coe in 1981 form could have run 3:28-29, so I give him the edge in the 1500m as well.

zxcvzxcv wrote:

Aouita was injured in that 800m final and he was definitely not an 800m runner half his career. He focused on the 1500m-5000m, with a steeple and a 10000m in there. Coe in 1981 form and probably 1984 would have won the 1988 800m final, whereas Aouita at top form would have challenged for the win and would surely have dominated the 1500 and 5000m. That's not to say he was clean but just that when healthy he was great. Coe in 1981 form could have run 3:28-29, so I give him the edge in the 1500m as well.

Although I agree with the above, and it's unfair to say that Aouita was an 800m runner for half of his career, he definitely was an 800/1500 runner until 1984.

He isn't even listed on the IAAF rankings for 1980 - 1983 at 5000m. I think his pb was still something like 13:45 or something going into his Olympic gold year.

He had already won the 800/1500 double at the Islamic Games in 1980. He medalled in both at the World Student Games the next year. He was a regular in the 800/1500 on the European b-circuit from 80 to 82. In 83 he ran 1:44.38 breaking his pb by 3 seconds, but as it came at the end of June, it was probably too late for him to reach the World Championship qualifying standard.

So he was definitely an 800/1500 runner for at least three years at the start of his career. I'm not sure you can even call Aouita a 1500 runner for half his career, given that he never contested a 1500 final in his career after Helsinki.

I wonder if there has even ever been any other runner in athletics history who never competed in a major final in the event he or she was world record holder in, AFTER they broke the record?

Coevett wrote:

He then dusted himself down and won the 1500m several days later in an Olympic record time which is still the Olympic non-EPO record.

3:32.07 beats 3:32.53 and I am sure El Guerrouj was tested many times and never tested positive for EPO.

Coevett wrote:

Chew on that and stew Coevett.

xD

Coevett wrote:

Aouita, on the other hand, took one knock from Elliott, finished well behind in 3rd, and then hobbled out of Seoul disgraced,

Despite his heavy injury with his right leg in plaster, Aouita ran the 1500m qualifying round in Seoul and hobbled through his round but qualified. His leg probably blew apart at this point and despite his courageous attitude, he could not line up for the 1500m semi finals. It was a disappointing championship for Aouita but I cannot think of any moment in Olympic history when a defending 5000m champion has moved down to 800m and managed to win a medal. Imagine John Ngugi carrying on to Barcelona and winning a bronze medal in the 800m? Absolutely unreal when I think about it.

zxcvzxcv wrote:

Aouita was injured in that 800m final and he was definitely not an 800m runner half his career. He focused on the 1500m-5000m, with a steeple and a 10000m in there. Coe in 1981 form and probably 1984 would have won the 1988 800m final, whereas Aouita at top form would have challenged for the win and would surely have dominated the 1500 and 5000m. That's not to say he was clean but just that when healthy he was great. Coe in 1981 form could have run 3:28-29, so I give him the edge in the 1500m as well.

I agree with all of the above!

not sure wrote:

Coevett wrote:

Aouita, on the other hand, took one knock from Elliott, finished well behind in 3rd, and then hobbled out of Seoul disgraced,

Despite his heavy injury with his right leg in plaster, Aouita ran the 1500m qualifying round in Seoul and hobbled through his round but qualified. His leg probably blew apart at this point and despite his courageous attitude, he could not line up for the 1500m semi finals. It was a disappointing championship for Aouita but I cannot think of any moment in Olympic history when a defending 5000m champion has moved down to 800m and managed to win a medal. Imagine John Ngugi carrying on to Barcelona and winning a bronze medal in the 800m? Absolutely unreal when I think about it.

Yes, his range was incredible, and in that department (from 800 - 5000m) his successes are unmatched.

He was referred to in the UK (not sure who coined the phrase, perhaps Pat Butcher) as the "Oliver Twist' of middle & distance running, because he always 'wanted more'.

Coe dodged Aouita. Aouita wanted to race when both were in great form after the Olympics

An all out race to see who is fastest and Coe was too scared. Coevett admitted Coe was in great form in 1984 as well.

So there wasn't any excuse for Coe to dodge this race.

Coevett even said Coe was about chasing WRs as well because of the prize money.

Money + WR + Aouita. Too much for Coe to his reputation.

To state Aouita wouldn't have medaled in LA for sure is nonsense - nobody knows, but with his 88 form he obviously would have had a chance. It's also obvious that Coe in 81 and Cruz in 84 were on another level. Coe at his 800m best even would be a big threat for Kipketer and Rudisha (probably not in London 2012).

In every sentence some almost can feel the fear from the notorious liar to be confronted with the reality.

Look at his choice of words: "Coe was STRONG enough to take silver" "Coe got BADLY knocked SEVERAL (aha?!?) times" "Aouita finished WELL behind" "Aouita took one knock". Hahaha - these are the words of a child. Or from someone who's main intention is to provokate. Not of someone who is interested in a serious discussion.

The facts: Aouita was closer to the winner than Coe. Both just could (should?) have run wider to avoid some confrontation, but Aouita obviously was hindered more than Coe. To claim that Ovett could have run "easily" under 1:43 is laughable. Ovett never ever was in sub 1:43 form, only some blinded british fanboys can see that out of the performances he actually has done. In Prague 78 he was young and very strong, he didn't run very wide and was paced almost the full race. 1:44.09 was the time he could run in good conditions - by far his fastest during his career. That's what he could do. Any better prediction is just wishful thinking. Would like to know Steve Cram's opinion on that. If not for some decency, he definitely would clearyl deny a sub 1:43 for Ovett (he has in some interview if I remember correct, but don't know when and where).

A 800m, 1500m, 5000m triple never ever was actually on the cards for Aouita. In the interviews which I actually have, he was talking about the 1500m and maybe the 800m. If he really has talked somewhere about the triple, it probably was after some question from a journalist. He is impulsive and might tend to some "proud" answers. That he seriously would have attempted the triple is laughable,

Coevett, I wait for your next lie about Ovett's races (for example Koblenz 86)! It will come!!

Want to clarify: Ovett probably was in sub 1:44 form in Moscow, sub 1:43 has no backing up at all. 2.5s+ because of some super fast 2nd lap after an almost jog in the 1st?

Deanouk wrote:

Yes, his range was incredible, and in that department (from 800 - 5000m) his successes are unmatched.

He was referred to in the UK (not sure who coined the phrase, perhaps Pat Butcher) as the "Oliver Twist' of middle & distance running, because he always 'wanted more'.

You have Ovett going in the other more conventional direction moving up in distance from 800m to 5000m - and he actually won major titles at all the distances (John Walker moved up but did not quite get the titles/medals at 5000m plus an 800m bronze in Christchurch). I can't recall anyone else doing things like that over a career even though it is more standard for athletes to move up in distance as they grow older. I can think of Paavo Nurmi, Nyamugabo and El Guerouj moving up successfully from 1500m to 5000m to win major medals/titles but no one spanning from 800m to 5000m except Aouita. You have to imagine someone like Rushida moving up to 5000m at the next Olympics/commonwealth games and winning the event to get an idea of what Ovett did in his career. Ovett then copied Aoutia and moved down in distance and was actually just short of making the British Olympic team for 1500m in 1988. He looked in majestic form in the qualifying heats but finished 4th in the final of the British trials and probably was lacking races that season. It would have been interesting if the British selectors had opted for Ovett to run in Seoul, he may have had a chance for a medal in the 1500m with a few more good races under his belt and it would have been his 4th consecutive Olympics and 6th Olympic final (assuming he got through the rounds)!

not sure wrote:

You have to imagine someone like Rushida moving up to 5000m at the next Olympics/commonwealth games and winning the event to get an idea of what Ovett did in his career. Ovett then copied Aoutia and moved down in distance and was actually just short of making the British Olympic team for 1500m in 1988. He looked in majestic form in the qualifying heats but finished 4th in the final of the British trials and probably was lacking races that season. It would have been interesting if the British selectors had opted for Ovett to run in Seoul, he may have had a chance for a medal in the 1500m with a few more good races under his belt and it would have been his 4th consecutive Olympics and 6th Olympic final (assuming he got through the rounds)!

Come on! Ovett would not have medaled in Seoul, not even close. His best time was a 3:36.90 while well beaten in Hengelo. His 5 Olympic middle distance finals is great, but a sixth in 88 was just completeley unrealistic. There is a reason why he wasn't selected.

Same for your comparison with Rudisha, a pure and only 800m runner who has won two 800m Olympic Golds in majestic style. On the other side Ovett, a fantastic Miler who has had some success in the 800m (sorry, but his 800m Gold was won in a relatively weak final where the only really great opponent totally underachieved). Ovett would not (and has not) medaled in 76, 84, 88, 92, 96. Winning 800m Gold at the Olympics and six years later Gold at the Commonwealth Games over 5000m is a great achievement, no doubt. But winning a solo 800m at the Olympics in WR time and then moving up to the 5000m is something different.

The typical saidipede - a poster makes a complimentary comment about Aouita, whilst suggesting that Ovett might have been on a similar level of talent and range, and the saidipede feels obliged to denigrate Ovett's achievements.

Ovett's achievement in winning the Commonwealth Games 5000m six years after the Moscow Olympics, and with all that went on in-between (impaling his thigh on a railing and then suffering cardiac problems in the smog of LA), is in my opinion superior to Aouita's 5000m Olympic gold and 800m bronze. Ovett did what he had to do on the day in Moscow and he did it in supreme style, with still I think the fastest 2nd lap in a major final. I think also at the time it was the biggest winning margin in the history of the 800m at Olympics. Considering he was actually boxed in at the bell, that's quite remarkable.

If we're talking devaluded Olympic finals, what about the LA 5000m?? Ovett's 800m victory was far superior to Aouita's LA gold. Coe didn't perform because Ovett had out psyched him. Perhaps it can be said that Bekele underperformed in the 2004 5000m final, but it doesn't distract from El G's victory (El G's likely doping however....).

EVERYBODY underperformed in the Seoul 800 final except Aouita, who ran close to his pb and likely maximum potential over the distance, and Ereng (whose win looked better than it was because of the paced nature of the race). Cruz did well to win silver after his career seemed over, but there's no doubt he was nowhere near the Cruz of LA. I think he'd had about 3 major operations by that point.

I agree, however, that Ovett wouldn't have made the 1500 final in 1988, not in the form he was in that year. He was obviously very close to making the team however, which Saidipede doesn't seem to understand. I don't know what Ovett's injury problems were in 87/88, but looking at that excellent German site 'The Great Distance Runners' we can see that something must have happened to Ovett straight after his highly creditable second to Aouita over 5000m in the middle of 1987, a race in which he beat some of the top 5000 guys that year, including both DeCastro brothers. He was in fine form up to and including that race, over the 1500/Mile as well, but that was his last good performance. After that he appears a shell of his former self. I doubt if it was simply age, but rather injury combined with age making it harder for him to battle back.

However, as I stated recently, Ovett had come back from similar patches of poor results caused by injuries, so it's unsurprising he did keep battling on. I know that in the winter of 87/88 he was confident of challenging for gold over 1500 in Seoul, along with Coe - who he still saw as his main rival - and Cram (I guess he assumed like everybody else that Aouita would remain too chicken to face the Brits over 1500).

Maybe if Ovett had stuck with the 5000m he would have at least made another Olympic Games in Seoul, which would have been his fourth in row - quite a remarkable feat.

As it is, (and this is what perhaps makes the Saidipede so jealous) Ovett's run from 1974 European 800 silver medalist to 1986 Commonwealth gold medalist over 5000 (and 1987 World finalist) is unmatched at those distances. Aouita - five years at the top in major championships, starting with the 1500m in 83 and finishing with the 800 bronze in 88. Ovett, 13 years at the top in major finals, starting with the 800 Euros in 74 (as an 18 year old 400/800 runner) and finishing as a 30 year old gold medalist at 5000m and then world finalist as a 31 year old. Ovett did it clean and despite two major setbacks (the railings and LA) that would no doubt have finished Aouita completely.

Coevett wrote:

However, as I stated recently, Ovett had come back from similar patches of poor results caused by injuries

Always excuses for your white heroes.

But Aouita having an injury in the final was just what? A bandage to impress the girls?

You are an idiot and you know NOTHING about professional running.

Just think - El G was loaded up with EPO like it probably still leaves an aroma in every stadium he ever competed in, and he had teammates willing to pace for him in finals too, yet he only ran half-a-second faster than Coe in the Olympic final (and lost the other).

Aouita running the 1500m in the 1992. I wonder why he didn't stick to the 5000m after 1988.

Aouita speaking Spanish is quite impressive at the end.

https://vimeo.com/17492757

Coevett wrote:

The typical saidipede - a poster makes a complimentary comment about Aouita, whilst suggesting that Ovett might have been on a similar level of talent and range, and the saidipede feels obliged to denigrate Ovett's achievements.

I stopped reading his nonsense after this initial sentence. It probably will get even worse.

I have not denigrated Ovett's achievements. He was a great athlete, one of the all-time great Milers. Who also has had good results in both directions from his speciality. What I can't stand anymore is this nonsense that he just jogged during his full career and COULD have done almost anything. That he only acted "good" and so on. His acting in Moscow was not good and he should have been disqualified. And in ANY really fast race beside his speciality he was well beaten or he didn't finish. Just a fact. You will for sure continue to lie about his performances (Koblenz 86 - not a time trial where on the streight he easily passed his opponent and for sure COULD...). Haha - completely opposite from reality. There is probably no other runner on this board where we have heard as often as for Ovett what he just COULD have done (for example from Coedeppe himself any WR from 800m to 5000m by big margins alone in 1978; 12:35 with PEDs...hahaha).

To connect myself with the support of PEDs is just another childish attempt to maintain his agenda. And for sure defamation (no backing up at all).