Sebastian Coe vs Said Aouita - 1500/mile race - Who would win?

kjk wrote:

Remember when people bragged about Coe's Olympic final 100m? Well here is something haven't seen since - Bile closing out a World Championship in 1:46.00 with a last 100m of 11.81 (splits from R. Quercetano book). Poor Cram dropped a 53-penultimate lap and it only woke up the sleeping giant, Bile.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_mAxvfUfWg

Another poor effort to troll from the same poster.

Bile’s last 100m was 13.1, which means his last 90m would have been around 11.8.

Not sure which book (if any) by Quercetani you claim to have read that from, but anyone with an ounce of intelligence would know that was utter nonsense, when in possession of all the rest of the splits from the race.

Wow, Bile was the Brit killer.. took down Coe and Cram with ease. Did he ever race Ovett?

llops wrote:

Wow, Bile was the Brit killer.. took down Coe and Cram with ease. Did he ever race Ovett?

Yes he did, Ovett thrashed him in 86, only a year before Bile won the world championships, and when Ovett had already moved up to the 5000m.

I think Ovett only ran two 1500m races that year, winning both in 3:33, and you're probably the same troll who was mocking me recently for claiming that Ovett could still have been a force at 1500 in 85/86.

Coevett wrote:

llops wrote:

Wow, Bile was the Brit killer.. took down Coe and Cram with ease. Did he ever race Ovett?

Yes he did, Ovett thrashed him in 86, only a year before Bile won the world championships, and when Ovett had already moved up to the 5000m.

I think Ovett only ran two 1500m races that year, winning both in 3:33, and you're probably the same troll who was mocking me recently for claiming that Ovett could still have been a force at 1500 in 85/86.

lol "thrashed".

Bile thrashed Cram there.

So much for the great white Brit.

rewtreyt wrote:

Yes he did, Ovett thrashed him in 86, only a year before Bile won the world championships, and when Ovett had already moved up to the 5000m.

I think Ovett only ran two 1500m races that year, winning both in 3:33, and you're probably the same troll who was mocking me recently for claiming that Ovett could still have been a force at 1500 in 85/86.

lol "thrashed".

[/quote]

thrashed by .55

Ovett hasn't run 3:33 twice in 86. After his WR in 83 he has run just one more sub 3:34.

Ovett ran a 3:33.79 in the early part of the 1986 season, and it looked great. He kicked past a strong field in the homestretch with ease and shut it down totally well before the line. Steve Cram was on the TV, not running, and in this peak year of his, he was clearly surprised - and slightly worried - by Ovett's form at that moment. However Ovett seemed to get hurt or have some other physical problem not long after that because he wasn't able to improve as he normally did during the season.

Coevett wrote:

Gregory K. Palm wrote:

Coe dodged Aouita in the 5000m.

He knew he couldn't win.

Aouita dodged Moses in the 400m hurdles.

He knew he couldn't win.

Logically, everyone dodged each other haha.

You're missing the point - the 1500m was and still is the blue ribbend event of the Games. The 5000m at he time was where the failed 1500m guys went to. It was almost the 1500m B race.

Of course, Aouita had had plenty of experience in B races already (1980-1982), so maybe he felt at home...

You're missing the point. A race is a race.

Aouita's strength is the 5000m. He was the best.

He dropped down to the 800m/1500m which wasn't his strength and showed he had the speed to compete with the best.

Coe never raced away from his strength which was 800m/1500m. He knew he would get demolished over 5000m. It is probably a wise decision by Aouita (whether on his part or Coe's) to not race Coe in Coe's preferred distances.

More credit needs to be given to Aouita for racing at top world class level in races which were not his strengths.

Morceli v Aouita v Cram.

Cram should have given up on the 1500m after 1988. Another great 1500m who stayed in the distance for too long.

Coevett wrote:

much closer wrote:

Correct, Ovett's defeats don't count (or Coe was the won who has beaten him), only his victories. So: Ovett has won all his races.

Coe and Straub!

Seven defeats from Scott in all, better Mile 2k and 3k PB - doesn't sound like clear domination.

Most of those seven defeats where when Ovett was injured or completely shot at the end of his career.

Scott and Walker had better longevity than Ovett, in fact they had the best longevity of just about any 1500m runners I can think of and only Willis compares (I wont include B sample Lagat).

Though I doubt very much Scott or Walker would have been as good at they were in their 30's if they had impaled their thigh on a railing or suffered from severe cardiac problems whilst stubbornly making two Olympic finals despite it.

I'm sure you know that Walker was plagued by calf problems for some years after 1976 that limited his training during what should have been his peak years as a miler. Despite this, he was willing to race anyone, anytime.

No, you're missing the point completely.

Aouita did not drop down to the 1500m. He was an 800/1500 runner all his career, who moved up to the 5000m in 1984 to avoid the Brits.

The 5000m was weak compared to middle-distance, as it always has been to be honest until EPO arrived.

He moved back to the events he had always ran in 1988 when it looked like Coe, Cram, Ovett and Scott, were all shot.

He stated clearly himself in an interview in 87, when asked directly why he wasn't taking on Cram in the 1500m in Rome, that although he preferred the 1500 and it was his best event, he had a better chance of winning the 5000m.

Aouita might well have been the only top middle-distance runner (outside of Eastern Europe) who was blood doping in the 80s. Why did everybody turn into 1500/5000m runners all of a sudden when EPO arrived (so much so that the timetables were changed almost overnight to accommodate it)? Because EPO allows top 1500m to retain their level at the 5000m.

In other words, it's no surprise he was the only top 1500m runner who 'had the option' to compete in the 5000m and win at major championships. Aouita was likely not only the first great African doper, but the first and perhaps only doper in history who doped not so much to defeat his (clean) rivals, but to avoid his (clean) rivals.

BTW, I'm often mocked as being a 25 minute Parkrunner who doesn't know anything about top class running, which is true, I only know about the history.

So perhaps one of you experts - maybe even Canova himself - could explain to me how Aouita suddenly went from typically running 1:50/3:40/14:00 to 1:43/3:29/12:58. I might just be able to buy (leaving aside the Australian scandal, 'doctor syringe' etc) that Aouita improved his training so he could go from B circuit 1500m runner to elite 1500m runner after one winter but to go from B level to A level in THREE different events, that's just something I don't understand.

Aouita was typically a 1:50 800m runner when specializing in the 800/1500 for several years in his early twenties. After then being a predominantly 5000m runner for the next 5 years (and even a world class 10000m runner) how it possible to drop down to the 800m in his late twenties for one season and run 6 seconds faster and be favorite for the gold medal?

What kind of improvement in training could achieve that? And remember he was training all that time when stuck as a 1:50 800m runner at the elite French sporting academy, when France wasn't exactly a middle-distance backwater.

race hustler wrote:

Coevett wrote:

Most of those seven defeats where when Ovett was injured or completely shot at the end of his career.

Scott and Walker had better longevity than Ovett, in fact they had the best longevity of just about any 1500m runners I can think of and only Willis compares (I wont include B sample Lagat).

Though I doubt very much Scott or Walker would have been as good at they were in their 30's if they had impaled their thigh on a railing or suffered from severe cardiac problems whilst stubbornly making two Olympic finals despite it.

I'm sure you know that Walker was plagued by calf problems for some years after 1976 that limited his training during what should have been his peak years as a miler. Despite this, he was willing to race anyone, anytime.

Yes of course I know that. I never said that Walker or Scott avoided anyone, certainly not Walker.

However, I do notice that Steve Scott didn't face Cram in 82 (to my knowledge). Cram had already taken over the mantle (even if it was thought temporarily) from Coe and Ovett. I wonder why they didn't meet on the circuit in 82?

Walker's calf problems might actually have helped his longevity to an extent. I read that after 76 (or even during 76 when his problems first appeared) he was unable to train for more than an hour at a time or something.

But I've always said that Walker would have been a threat to Coe and Ovett had he not had his calf problems.

I think he was on a slightly higher level than Scott too (in terms of talent at least).

slowvett wrote:

rewtreyt wrote:

Yes he did, Ovett thrashed him in 86, only a year before Bile won the world championships, and when Ovett had already moved up to the 5000m.

I think Ovett only ran two 1500m races that year, winning both in 3:33, and you're probably the same troll who was mocking me recently for claiming that Ovett could still have been a force at 1500 in 85/86.

lol "thrashed".

thrashed by .55

Ovett hasn't run 3:33 twice in 86. After his WR in 83 he has run just one more sub 3:34.[/quote]

Over half a second is a big difference at 1500m. Ovett lost to Aouita over 5000m in 87 (before Rome and just before he got injured again effectively ending his career as an elite athlete) and I've been told he was thrashed by Aouita in that race.

As the other poster said, Ovett was easing down in that race. He was not chasing the clock.

Ovett only ran under 3:34 once before 1979, when he'd already clearly established himself as one of the greatest 1500m runners in history and was arguably at his peak (late 77/78). He only ran under 3:34 when he had to (very rarely) or was going for a WR. Bile obviously wasn't much of a threat and couldn't push him to a faster time.

*meant to say that Ovett lost to Aouita over 5000m before Rome by 1 1/2 seconds.

Coevett wrote:

The low IQ trolls here mock me for claiming that Ovett and (in particular) Coe would have ran faster in 1982

Priceless.

And you lose any remaining credibility by maintaining your lies about Aouita's times.

I hope said88 doesn't waste any more of his time correcting you because you don't care about facts.

Coevett wrote:

However, I do notice that Steve Scott didn't face Cram in 82 (to my knowledge).

Cram did actually beat Scott over 1500m in the Zurich meet of 82, which was before the Europeans in Athens. Once Cram won there, he was basically guaranteed the #1 ranking for the year, despite Scott's impressive 3:47.69 mile in Oslo earlier in the summer.

Just for good measure, Cram beat Scott again, this time over 1000m, two days later in London.

Coevett wrote:

slowvett wrote:

lol "thrashed".

thrashed by .55

Ovett hasn't run 3:33 twice in 86. After his WR in 83 he has run just one more sub 3:34.

Over half a second is a big difference at 1500m. Ovett lost to Aouita over 5000m in 87 (before Rome and just before he got injured again effectively ending his career as an elite athlete) and I've been told he was thrashed by Aouita in that race.

As the other poster said, Ovett was easing down in that race. He was not chasing the clock.

Ovett only ran under 3:34 once before 1979, when he'd already clearly established himself as one of the greatest 1500m runners in history and was arguably at his peak (late 77/78). He only ran under 3:34 when he had to (very rarely) or was going for a WR. Bile obviously wasn't much of a threat and couldn't push him to a faster time.[/quote]

Clearly so easy to wind this guy up lol

SpAArtaQvLVsss wrote:

Ovett ran a 3:33.79 in the early part of the 1986 season, and it looked great. He kicked past a strong field in the homestretch with ease and shut it down totally well before the line. Steve Cram was on the TV, not running, and in this peak year of his, he was clearly surprised - and slightly worried - by Ovett's form at that moment. However Ovett seemed to get hurt or have some other physical problem not long after that because he wasn't able to improve as he normally did during the season.

And directly from Mr Coevett himself:

Coevett wrote:

As the other poster said, Ovett was easing down in that race. He was not chasing the clock.

That's the point of view from the liar himself and and one of his many handles (as I believe, or there just is another mad one like him). Just a reflection of what he (they?) think has happened or what they wish. Quotes taken directly right of their as...

And now the correct version.

The race was in August, in the absolute height of the season. It was the purest time trial from Ovett someone can think of. Ovett directly after the start went behind two pacemakers. The three went well ahead of the field very soon, a gap of something like at least 20 meters opened. The 2nd pacemaker took Ovett until 1100m and Ovett reached 1200m in 2:50.44. Then he dramatically slowed down (43.34 for the final 300m). Bile was running at the end of a too big field and passed all of them (running very wide) in the last 500m and closed the gap to Ovett on the homestretch, obviously having no clue about his true potential. The race was run on Ovett's favoured track in Koblenz, where he has set his best 1500m and Mile times (apart from Rieti with the obviously extremely good conditions).

It was Ovett's only sub 3:34 after his last WR at the age of 27. The race was run 1 week after his great 5000m Gold at the Commonwealth games.

And now, compare the reality with the 100% made up "version" of Coevett. We should take any, really any, "fact" which Coevett presents us with the biggest portion of scepticism possible. We are talking here about just number based facts which are easy to verify (but Coevett even doesn't accept pure facts like that if they don't fit his agenda).

What about all the other points which he regularly brings to this forum as "facts" and which are just highly speculative and just nobody has an clear knowledge about the reality.

Benenisa Kekele wrote:

Coevett wrote:

The low IQ trolls here mock me for claiming that Ovett and (in particular) Coe would have ran faster in 1982

And you lose any remaining credibility by maintaining your lies about Aouita's times.

Remaining credibility? You think there was any?

Laughable response as usual. You have no proof that Aouita doped. It is all circumstantial.

It is like people saying Coe doped when he had the blood disorder. So Coe is a doper based on circumstance?

Viren is a doper because Maaninka doped?

Where is this interview of Aouita? You also say this interview, that interview, with no source.

Just because a runner started in an event at the beginning of their career doesn't mean it will or has to be their main strength/event. Every runner needs to find their event

Waldemar Cierpinski was a 3000m SC runner. Fernando Mamede was a 800m/1500m runner.

You always mention the 5000m was a weak event in your opinion, however, Aouita dominated the 3000m/5000m during that period. He won every race and ran WRs. Even if there were stronger runners for your argument sake. He still would have won.

He had the stamina and speed, hence 3000m/5000m was his event. First man to break 13:00 is no mean feat.