What 1600 or 3200 time would I need to get into an Ivy League school w/ 36ACT and 4.0GPA + good extracurriculars? (Junior)

Some decent advice here, but also a lot of misinformation as well.

OP to answer you original question, for an true admissions edge the first response you got was about right. 4:10ish 1600 and 9:15ish 3200 depending on the school. A little faster for Princeton, a little slower for Harvard, but probably with 5-10 seconds of those at any school. To just make the team, 9:30ish will do with a good work ethic in most cases. 9:40 as a junior suggests you can probably do it if you really want to.

The majority of the misinformation relates to the cost of attendance. All of the Ivies are tuition free for family incomes up to ~$100K (some as high as ~$150K). Most try to offer enough aid so that no student graduates with debt. The Ivies have amongst the lowest (if not the lowest) debt at graduation of any universities. Now a decent amount of that is down to the level of wealth of many of the families who send their kids their, but a lot of it is down to the extremely generous financial aid.

Source: I was a middle class kid (family income of ~$80K in today’s dollars) who attended and ran at an Ivy in the early 2000s. Ran 9:35 as a high school senior, walked on, and eventually ran mid-14s for 5K and scored at Heps. Graduated with no student debt, and a job at one of the major management consulting firms.

Good luck

Ivies don't offer merit or athletic scholarships. All aid is need-based. With that being said, your advice or "go to a state school unless your family can pay all of your tuition" is not good advice. While Ivies don't give any sort of merit/academic or athletic scholarships, the need-based aid is very generous and it can often cost less to attend an Ivy than a state school after all is considered. I know of families with $250,000+ annual incomes that received need-based aid at an Ivy. The bottom line is....look at the bottom line. Also, don't use forums such as Let's Run to get advice on the affordability of colleges.

If you all read my post, you'd know that I'm fully aware that there are tons of kids better than me. But obviously I can dream.

1. My parents have the money, so no debt. But not insane money.

2. Scholars' Bowl is Quiz Bowl. Its where they ask these long obscure questions about academic subjects and you buzz in. Not a huge deal, but I'm proud of it.

3. Running is big for me because I love it and I love improving. If I get into an Ivy and don't make the team, I'll run for a club. I'm going to keep doing it regardless.

4. I know whoever said that I should be cut from the team is a troll, but I'm the school record holder. Crappy running school, no super serious coaching, just a nice teacher who's trying his best.

5. I have never run over 40mpw until last week. I could feasibly work my way up a good bit by next XC season.

thanks for the honesty guys

My point is that Quiz Bowl doesn't show that you can do anything that typing something into Google can do. You can regurgitate facts. That's not going to stand out in academia where people are more interested in your ability to contribute original research and solve complex problems.

Quiz Bowl is really really nothing to shout home about. Sorry.

Can you write a convincing paper, solve complex mathematical problems, puzzles. Have you ever published anything or one any sort of contest that involves critical thinking/research?

That's even bigger. Standing out in areas of critical thinking and original research/contributions to a field.

Not knocking you. Just being realistic about the competitive nature of Ivies.

But you can also consider the "West Coast" Ivies, like Stanford, CalTech, Harvey Mudd..just as competitive to get into.

But don't shoot for CalTech unless you're willing to devote 40 hours/week to homework alone solving math and physics problem sets. It's no joke. I have a friend who went there to study EE. He attended Stuyvestant in NYC, got a 1480 on the SAT back when it was only 2 components, and was a high C student...and he loves tech with a passion.

But he is also a minority of Argentinian descent. His mom was a maid, an immigrant. His background probably helped him get into CalTech.

Dur wrote:

If you have a 4.0, a 36 ACT, varsity running should be VERY LOW on your list of what you are looking for in college. It's like the tail wagging the dog.

If you pick Stanford, enjoy the climate and run with a club or by yourself. If you pick Harvard, maybe you can make the travel squad and then claw your way to varsity, maybe not and you end up going solo up and down the Charles. If you are poor, take your full ride to State U. and run varsity if you can make it, and don't if you can't.

The people that pick a school based on a athletics program are better runners than intellectually gifted. With a 9:40, I'd put the breaking point at about 3.6 and 32 ACT.

Clearly many of the people commenting here saying things like “don’t go unless your family can pay” have never been accepted to a top university.

If you’re actually poor and get into an Ivy they’ll cover a huge portion of your tuition with quite possible grants only, NO LOANS. They give out FREE money based on need not merit so if you need it you’ll get it.

Then when you graduate you can make $100k+ in 2018 dollars and you’ll be well on your way to completing the LR trio of $$$, sub 14 5k and model wife.

Outside of legacy and being a very disadvantaged minority with good grades, you want to know where the bulk of Ivy matriculants come from?

Olympiad competitors, students who've competed at high levels of various bees (geography, spelling), Intel finalists and semi finalists, Siemens, top students at elite schools (think Stuyvestant, Thomas Jefferson magnet school in Virginia, a number of schools in California, etc).

Being at the top of your class in a known elite school, like top 10, strongly increases your chances.

When stacked up against the caliber of students mentioned above, where do you stand? Don't shoot for the stars if you can't hit the bottom limb of the apple tree.

Dril wrote:

[quote]Dur wrote:

Then when you graduate you can make $100k+ in 2018 dollars and you’ll be well on your way to completing the LR trio of $$$, sub 14 5k and model wife.

A true Ivy student would turn their wife into a model/babe, not marry one.

And you don't get that by being an Ivy student. You get it by being the man with a successful business. I know millionaire restaurant owners who didn't even go to college.

Ivy is overrated. I know plenty of dumbarses who are making big money because they know how to hustle and start a business.

White - don't bother trying wrote:

Be black or brown

This is the right answer.

Exactly! wrote:

White - don't bother trying wrote:

Be black or brown

This is the right answer.

Really? So then why are Ivies overwhelmingly white?

boywhocriedwolf wrote:

Exactly! wrote:

This is the right answer.

Really? So then why are Ivies overwhelmingly white?

Maybe few black and brown apply relative to the rest of the groups?

Many top black students go to prestigious HBCU's like Howard especially. The networking for African American students is MUCH BETTER at the prestigious HBCU's, especially Howard and Morehouse.

Plus they're more likely to interact in campus events with famous African American alumni in industry who more than likely graduated from an HBCU.

I know for sure that Morehouse attracts very talented African Americans.

Maybe black students just feel better in an environment that is more supportive of their needs.

OP. Why don't you just email me since I coached in the league for 10 years.

Look you are either recruited or you are n't. Otherwise it doesn't matter. IF you are a 9:35 2 miler and not recruited or a 1235 2 miler it's all the same.

If you are a recruited athlete, that's what they care about it - period. You are either "on the list" or not. It doesn't really help to be almost good enough to be recruited and almost good enough to get in on your own. I wanted to see sub 4:20 sub 9:30 as a junior in HS as you want to see something close to 4:10 sub 9:15 as a senior. P

I always say the Ivies want the best of everything.

They want the very best minority students.

They want the very best students from North Darkota.

They want the best students whose parents didnt go to college.

They want the very best legacy students.

They want the very best running students.

They want the very best basketball playing students.

And yes, they want the very best students overall. But the groups take up a ton.

rojo wrote:

I always say the Ivies want the best of everything.

And yes, they want the very best students overall. But the groups take up a ton.

Which brings back my point about being in the top 5 or 10 students at the top prep schools. Even if you aren't a prodigy who has already published art or literature or done graduate level research, being in the top 5 of your class at an elite school like Bolles out of Jacksonville, Stuyvestant out of NY, or Thomas Jefferson High school out of Virginia would make you almost a lock at an Ivy league school.

Their curriculum is such that you're doing work at a volume or intensity that mirrors many colleges.

Plus, you have to be truly special just to get into and remain in some of these schools, especially TJ (what we call Thomas Jefferson magnet school for short).

Why are you still posting comments about Ivies? You clearly have very little idea what you're talking about. Please stay out of the way so people with more experience and knowledge can be heard.

Ivy Hopeful,

Dartmouth has a posted Excel spreadsheet on their site.

1600 - 4:20

3200 - 9:20

That's just what they SAY too, and most of them will be similar. Get within a few seconds, and they will consider you.

Also, when Ivies come up, people always bring up how expensive it is. Well, most people have no clue. My daughter looked at a couple of Ivies, and at the time we made about $100,000 a year and our bill to send her there would have been only room and board...full tuition...actually even a little more than room and board.

The Ivies give GREAT financial aid...no athletic or academic scholarships, but great financial aid.

If you want to go to an Ivy League school, contact a coach and make it happen.

Someone said 4.0 students with super high ACT and SAT scores are all over at the Ivies, and that's true. Your hook is if you can get a coach to want you too.

Goa Way wrote:

Why are you still posting comments about Ivies? You clearly have very little idea what you're talking about. Please stay out of the way so people with more experience and knowledge can be heard.

I run circles around Ivy league graduates at work. You have no idea. Intellectual curiosity is not bounded by the school you attended.

At work I'm busy explaining high level graph theory concepts to Yale graduates who don't know how to apply theory in practical ways.

Goa Way wrote:

Why are you still posting comments about Ivies? You clearly have very little idea what you're talking about. Please stay out of the way so people with more experience and knowledge can be heard.

This song sums up my life. I've been through more than you can ever imagine.

We were disappointed that our son received no responses form Ivy coaches after posting 9:25 and 4:17 his junior year. He was 4.0, 34 ACT, 1530 SAT, and National Merit finalist status his senior year. No response from Notre Dame either but WashU and U of Chicago coaches were very persistent.

markschultz2018k wrote:

Dril wrote:

[quote]Dur wrote:

Then when you graduate you can make $100k+ in 2018 dollars and you’ll be well on your way to completing the LR trio of $$$, sub 14 5k and model wife.

A true Ivy student would turn their wife into a model/babe, not marry one.

And you don't get that by being an Ivy student. You get it by being the man with a successful business. I know millionaire restaurant owners who didn't even go to college.

Ivy is overrated. I know plenty of dumbarses who are making big money because they know how to hustle and start a business.

I'm an Ivy grad and I have no idea what you're talking about.

markschultz2018k wrote:

and we have learned... wrote:

... mark knows nothing about Ivies.

I went to a state school and I'm is making $89K/yr. No need to.

Great Mark!

With that income, your kids would get full need-based tuition with room and board too.

....if they get in, that's the kicker.