Was Verzbicas the greatest HSer of all time?

TrackCoach wrote:

thegreatest? wrote:

Won NXN and footlocker then broke 4 in the mile and 8:30 in the two mile.

Those were some pretty big wins.

Unless you choose to totally forget about the passage of time, Ryun and Lindgren stand alone as the GOAT by a fairly wide margin . . .

Or unless you know the meaning of the word "alone" (or can count to 2).

C. Virgin wrote:

No.

But he is a good cyclist.

I just want everyone to know that this is not me above... and I really don't appreciate anyone using my name... or anything remotely close to it.

Thanks, The REAL Craig Virgin

Also, I worked with a Bloomington, IL based sports writer, Randy Sharer, for 8.5 years to do a comprehensive and accurate authorized biography named "Virgin Territory" and it is out now and we are slowly rolling nationally with it. I will try to find a way to attach on this thread....the two chapters that dealt with my senior year of HS which I would compare to any of the athletes you all are mentioning. So many of the younger generations today are not really good historians...but we did not have the internet back in our days and timely national coverage (especially video) was harder to obtain.....and to keep for posterity. ... so you all really should read up on it before spouting off all your strong opinions on this thread.

That's why I think my book (and others) needed to be done. And, Matt Centrowitz Sr.'s book is very informative also.... but no pictures and not edited nearly enough but still very good. You would be well advised to read Matt's and my books to understand what we coped with...and how we raced... back in the "glory days" of HS distance running in the late 60's to early 80's... before a "slump" occured. Keep in mind that we often competed on cinder or crummy rubber asphalt tracks... there were inferior racing spikes/flats then.... pace makers/rabbits simply weren't allowed....there was no Foot Locker or NXN national championships back then (I simply ran in the AAU National Champs back then against the best runners in the country (Shorter had just won the marathon gold a couple months earlier....over 6 miles!).... and there were not these all-star indoor track meets or post-state outdoor invites (with rabbits under lights on a beautiful synthetic track) like they have today. I raced collegians and sometimes even post collegians during HS to try to get better. And, I made two US Jr National Teams my last two years of HS which also helped jump start my career in college and beyond.

It's really heard to decide the "greatest of all time".... because everyone is a bit different ...and also did somewhat different events better than others... but to be considered in the Top 10...or even Top 5 for your "body of work" is a great honor in itself. And, you have to look at quality and quantity and consistency.... week after week... month after month. We all raced a helluva lot more back then than what the athletes do today. The "optimal" is probably something in the middle.... more than what is done today....and less than what we did "back in the day." Finally, since Lukas raced in Illinois during HS... I got a chance to see him compete several times and we visited when we could. I found him a very polite/likable young man with a tremendous talent.... but he (like 50% of the HS superstars yearly) did not improve in college... for whatever reason. Then he had a tragic bicycle accident that appears to have ended his elite competitive career. You would be well advised to look for the athletes who were good in HS but then kept on improving in college ... and then beyond. The ones who successfully tackled the transitions to the next level. Those are the ones you need to respect and study.... because it is much easier said... than done! The statistics prove that.

Thanks for the thoughtful post, Craig. Very good points... but we'll still ask you to weigh in. :)

Even if it's impossible to truly name a single "greatest" HS runner, who would you consider to be in the conversation?

I would have disagree and state that what Jim Ryan did in the 1960's was more impressive. What was impressive about Verzbicas was that he was not just a track and field athlete but also one of the triathletes in the world for his age. Not surprised though as there was an aussie triathlete running just a few years later who ran 8:08 as an 17 year old 11th grader. He stayed in tri's but if he would have focused on running he would have run sub 8 and was better than Tiernan and McDondald.

Good stuff Craig always a legend for us back in the day. Best ever no but if looking at results would say that #1 was Jim Ryan #2 Alan Webb and #3 based on track times only Lukas. But just an opinion for whatever that is worth. It will always be a shame not see him compete at an elite level as a senior but his accident on the bike is what every triathlete has to deal with. Hope he has a great life and isn't haunted by what could have been. Maybe he will become a great coach? Good luck to him.

I like Alan Webb for his 3:53 with a faster kick than El Guerrouj -- the most exciting single race by a high schooler of all time, IMO.

I'm willing to accept Ryun as #1 also.

I'm going with German at #3 for breaking the most untouchable record, and running like a metronome.

Verzbicas deserves consideration at #3, along with about 30 others.

LV ran with a falsified age, which should disqualify him immediately. No too tough to be the "best" HS'er ever when you're 23.

Vaporflyer wrote:

Jim Ryun was the best American HSer ever. Period.

Even Lucas agrees....

Just don't go calling LV an age cheat. The facts have been stated here many times.

Well this is a discussion about HS only so we're not looking at what happened after that.

I'm one of two guys who spear headed the effort to find out if the original Detweiller course was the same length as the newer layout so that we could compare today's times to yours. Until I came along the BS "the new course is 9 seconds slower" was passed as truth, and still is until I correct it.

You're welcome.

This is no joke, but Verzbicas was my inspiration to become a runner (and I was 35 at the time). So suffice it to say I'm a big fan.

There are two ways to look at this. One is to look at accomplishments only with no historical context, and the other is to try to give some weight to the historical context.

For accolades, it's pretty hard to argue against Verzbicas, though I think Webb based on his times and range is definitely up there.

Adjusting for context, conditions, knowledge, training, surfaces, the fact that Ryun had nothing to go on as far as what was possible, then I think it's hard to argue against Ryun or Lindgren. It's like elite HS running didn't exist before then, then all of a sudden they were on the world's stage and had to figure it out all themselves.

I go with Lukas. 8:29 is insane, and 3:59 in a storm is on that level. Incredible XC performances, 14:06 indoors at 16 years old. Ryun is the only athlete that comes close IMO. I don't think counting international events is fair because the US and distance running as a whole is better now than when Ryun was in HS.

I don't see why people would consider Ryun the GOAT, because he only has the 15/mile on Lukas. Not sure if it's because Ryun is a legend and for some reason people believe that LV was old for high school even tho he graduated in 2011 at 18. As a complete distance runner, no one can touch Lukas. No one has his range and PRs, title,s and records.

eric the redneck wrote:

Not Nomar wrote:

Al Oerter won the Olympic Decathlon as a prep.

That would be Bob Mathias.

Unless the thread title should include the word "runner," this post should have gotten more discussion. If you are talking best American high school track and field athletes ever, I don't see a stronger case for anyone else, provided you accept him being in the summer after graduation when he won is decathlon gold medal (at the age of 17, he was pretty much doing the opposite of age cheating).

Oh Please wrote:

This is no joke, but Verzbicas was my inspiration to become a runner (and I was 35 at the time). So suffice it to say I'm a big fan.

There are two ways to look at this. One is to look at accomplishments only with no historical context, and the other is to try to give some weight to the historical context.

For accolades, it's pretty hard to argue against Verzbicas, though I think Webb based on his times and range is definitely up there.

Adjusting for context, conditions, knowledge, training, surfaces, the fact that Ryun had nothing to go on as far as what was possible, then I think it's hard to argue against Ryun or Lindgren. It's like elite HS running didn't exist before then, then all of a sudden they were on the world's stage and had to figure it out all themselves.

It is impossible to not view accomplishments without historical context. Jessie Owens is arguably the greatest track and field athlete ever, yet his 10.3 100m dash and long jumped 26' 5" in the 1936 Olympics won't win the NCAA championship. Perspective: Owens used a hole in the ground for blocks, ran in leather spikes on a dirt track and his performances were close to the world record and good enough to win Olympic gold medals. When Ritz won the FLNC, he beat Webb and Hall, the American mile and half marathon record holder and finished 3rd at WJXC in a race against Kenenisa Bekele, Nicholas Kemboi and Matt Tegenkamp. - You can't just compare times and ignore the historical context.

fat in that picture

he's a conservative, instagram with Milo and Ben Shapiro

Kevin Sullivan = GOAT

Bruce Egeland = GOAT

And it really isn't close.

Nope. Not the GOAT. He is the 2 mile record holder — but I think Webb & GF would beat him 8/10 times in ahead to head 2 M. Any style.

swerve wrote:

As a complete distance runner, no one can touch Lukas. No one has his range and PRs, title,s and records.

LOL no.

ZERO 800 meter credentials, and severely over-aged throughout high school.