why does Daniel's suggest working at faster than 5k pace?

Elaborate some: when you say that Daniels suggest working at paces faster than 5k pace, which workouts are you talking about? Depending on which workouts you are talking about, the reasons will be diferent.

If you are talking about the workouts at mile race pace or faster ("R" workouts) they are done to improve running economy.

If you are talking about workouts that would otherwise approximate 5k pace (what Daniels calls "I" workouts), they are being done at vo2max pace, which for most people is somewhere between 3k and 5k pace. These are meant to maximize vo2max adaptations. For some people (those who run 15:00 for 5k for example), there is no real difference between 5k pace and interval pace as calculated by Daniels, while for others (those who run 24:00 for 5k), it will be about 3k pace.

So the question is not whether to work at your current 5k pace or faster than that, but rather to work at your current vo2max pace. Daniels never advocates doing I workouts at faster than current vo2max pace.

Honest question: did you read the book, or just scan it and jump to the workout plans and tables?

Read the book and find out. Working at your current fitness level does not preclude running faster than 5K pace.

In the words of Renato Canova, : "if you do not exercise faster fibers, you will not be be able to use faster fibers." ( meaning fibers that are faster than slow fibers)

The goal is to make race pace comfortable, so it is all about speed adaptation. By training at 10-15 seconds above race pace, the body adapts, and racing at goal pace will be a lot less stressful. It teaches the bodfy to race and feel comfortable even with a high lactate generation ( above a steady state)..

I'm guilty of thumbing thru it. Seen the general idea of E paces are collectively recovery, easy, and long run suggested paces, T being lactate threshold (tempo) paces, R being running economy or close to mile pace, then there's 'I', which is vo2max or 3k to 5k paces. Then there's the cookie cutter schedule to make sense of what and when. I get that part. But 'I' paces and what my coach has told me are not really in alignment or my lack of understanding is not in alignment (perhaps reading could help, I see that now). My coach had me running at my recent 5k paces that I've done to better my 5k performance. I see Daniel's being the go-to for info on this forum. I thumbed through it (yes, guilty) and see he suggests working at 'I' paces which are slightly faster than current fitness to improve 5k times, this just went against what I was taught and was wondering why or why not is it better to work at a fitness higher than capable of in terms of 'I' paces?

Read the book,

Your understanding of "I" pace is so far off base there's really nowhere to start. Just read the book and forget everything you think you know about it.

appreciate the honesty. I guess my next move should have been my first move.

If the benefit of I paces can’t be easily explained I don’t see how reading the book will resolve that. What’s the gist of the purpose of these i paces? What does it mean to maximize v02max adaptations? And how do we know I pace actually does that?

Why does Daniel’s what suggest working at faster than 5K pace ?

Xans wrote:

appreciate the honesty. I guess my next move should have been my first move.

Don't beat yourself up over it. Basically "I" pace isn't 5k pace or 5k goal pace. It is arbitrary with respect to race paces. It is meant to be "VO2 max" pace which is hypothetically the pace at which you can hold max VO2 the longest (~11 minutes). Anyway, the book would explain it in more detail.

Not_so_fast wrote: What does it mean to maximize v02max adaptations? And how do we know I pace actually does that?

this is not an unreasonable question, and the answer will also help OP.

the first law of training is the law of specificity. it states that the adaptation you make is specific to the stress that you apply. this has been known, scientifically, since 1956 when Hans Selye published The Stress of Life, the book that explains, in more detail than any runner will ever want to know, how the body adapts to stress. Selye was talking about all the stresses of life, going to work, worrying about mortgage payments, missing your dental appointments, forgetting to do your homework, and so forth, but it also applies to the stress that you apply in training. another way of saying the same thing is that you become what you train to be. if you train at pace x then you become better at running at pace x. *

when we talk about physiological adaptations that are measured at thresholds, the lactate thereshold, VO2max, maximum lactate steady state, and so forth, the first law of training says that you improve the threshold by training at, or close to the threshold. this is the precise reason why multi-pace training works. you work at the pace that applies the stress that induces the adaptation that makes you better suited to meet your performance goal. you need to make several adaptations, so you train at those several paces.

the confusion, or at least, in my opinion the confusion arises, because we are not able to say, with any great deal of certainty, where, exactly, each threshold lies. a 2009 review paper by Oliver Faude identified not one lactate threshold, but 25 different lactate threshold concepts in the scientific literature. such proliferation leads, inevitably to confusion. if the scientists are confused, what hope have we ordinary mortals got?

* note for pedants. strictly speaking, Selye said that if you run at pace x you become good at handling the stress of running at pace x. forgetting your homework doesn't necessarily make you better at forgetting, it just helps you deal with the stress of forgetting.

cheers.

It has nothing (directly) to do with running faster than your current 5k pace. I'm not a physiologist so I may get this slightly wrong so actually read the book. But to improve VO2max, intervals should be run at the pace that produces max heart rate (i.e. at your VO2max). This pace, called vVO2max, is approximatley what you can sustain for 10 minutes. As you cannot run a 5k in 10 minutes, it is faster than your 5k pace.

In other words, your current 5k pace is not quite fast enough. Though the difference should decline the fitter you get fitter (i.e. Elites will be pretty close, while a really slow person will be doing intervals closer to mile race pace).

Just in case you are new here:

1. Smoove is our resident Daniels expert. The only person you should listen to other than him is Daniels himself (who does respond to email, from time to time)

2. Read the book. Knowing what to do is pointless unless you know why you are doing it.

3. Smoove: are you in Orlando?

Well, I'm certainly the one who talks about Daniels the most, but plenty of others understand the material.

Yep, Orlando.

Cottonshirt wrote:

Not_so_fast wrote: What does it mean to maximize v02max adaptations? And how do we know I pace actually does that?

when we talk about physiological adaptations that are measured at thresholds, the lactate thereshold, VO2max, maximum lactate steady state, and so forth, the first law of training says that you improve the threshold by training at, or close to the threshold. this is the precise reason why multi-pace training works. you work at the pace that applies the stress that induces the adaptation that makes you better suited to meet your performance goal. you need to make several adaptations, so you train at those several paces.

I agree that training at a variety of paces is important. I also think specificity is the most important principle of training. And I totally agree that determining thresholds is problematic. The protocol used for LT testing in most labs is woefully inadequate at providing truly accurate LT paces for an individual athlete, and a protocol that would be accurate would be prohibitively expensive, time consuming, and physiologically stressful. VO2 pace is even more problematic because it turns out that (1) it does not respond to training other than weight loss in experienced athletes, and (2) the entire concept of VO2max (i.e., a pace beyond which you do not consumer more oxygen) is questionable, as many tested athletes appear not to have such a threshold.

I think that what you posted above, however, is actually misapplication of the specificity principle. Running at your LT pace (or what you think your LT pace is) will unquestionably make you better at running that specific pace, but doesn't mean it's the best way to move your LT upwards. There is no straightforward way to apply the specificity principle to "moving a physiological threshold," because the threshold is affected by the interplay of a staggering number of physiological parameters, all of which will respond differently to different training stimuli. That's why training to improve LT isn't really targeting a specific adaptation that leads to faster racing. Both race pace and LT pace are the product of an unknown number of adaptations. Which doesn't meant that training at LT pace is pointless--as you noted above, multipace training helps you to get a variety of adaptations necessary for performance--it's just that LT pace is a convenient shorthand for an intense pace that's slower than race pace for track runners. There's no reason, however, that LT pace is an essential training pace. A lot of athletes could just as easily use 10k pace and 13.1 pace as their endurance-side paces in a multipace program.

Despite my affinity for a Daniels-based approach to training, and despite 800 dude's consistent distaste for a Danielsesque philosophy, (a) I always enjoy 800 dude's perspective, (b) I pretty much agree with most of his post.

I guess I would add that while there is not good science for the ability to train vo2max, it has been an unquestionably successful component of many coaches' approach to training for decades. I do get the inconsistency of a Daniels guy pointing to anecdotal evidence and custom as the basis for a training approach rather than science, for the record.

Smoove wrote:

Well, I'm certainly the one who talks about Daniels the most, but plenty of others understand the material.

Yep, Orlando.

Poop, just got back from Disney. Shoulda tried to contact you for a run :-/

Definitely reach out next time. I love downtown, which is about 30 minutes away, but Disney is really pretty close to those clay roads I mentioned in the past. It would've been a good run.

Okay, time to un-complicate this.

To the guy who is a thumb reader( lol), dr.daniels HIMSELF breaks I PACE down.

Also, if you really want to generate maximum speed intensity, Renato Canova is the one to follow. Daniels is cool, and is a great coach, and has some good formulas, but he is not as dynamic as Renato.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dQEwJhHWXk&list=PLlMHliIIR6Fm3aN2mOZ77fq-eovn5dNn0&index=2

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9GUSaDQgeZg&t=3150s