XC skiers look worse than distance runners at the finish line. Is their sport harder?

you are correct wrote:

C0l0rado wrote:

I've been a climber for a long time and have not heard the term "screaming barfies" used in that sense. I've always heard it from ice climbers to describe the nauseating sensation of regaining sensation in frozen hands as they unthaw. But maybe the use of the term has expanded.

You beat me to it!

I've been ice climbing for 25 years and you have it absolutely right. I have never heard that term used in any relation to rock climbing. Can be your toes as well, but regardless, it hurts like hell and you do feel like you're going to hurl massively while it's happening.

Maybe I have inadvertently co-opted it from working my current long-term project, a 5.14a/b which overhangs 90 degrees for 70'. It feels remarkably similar, though with more intense forearm cramping v. temperature shock. Curling into a quivering, moaning ball is definitely an element in both.

Apologies to my alpinist mates out there if a mere sport climber (occasional ice) has transgressed the jargon barrier :)

Just don't make the comparison from watching distace races from the worlds or olympics where often they jog and then kick it in. So it seems like they are not that tired since most did not give an all out race from start to finish.

I'm amazed that the three of you made it this far without even once citing "sewing machine legs" myself?

I think it depends on how the question is interpreted. More physically demanding, maybe. Mentally exhausting, not necessarily. I will say though, that the muscles used to hold one's posture upright to stand, is what is taxed the most from xc ski racing, so being able to stand at the end probably isn't the best indicator of difficulty.

One could also say distance running is harder, in the sense that it takes more recovery time to be able to repeat the same max performance. They're just different.

President's Athletic Conference wrote:

I'm amazed that the three of you made it this far without even once citing "sewing machine legs" myself?

That's not really fatigue, more like the nerves of a freaked-out neophyte on a lower-angle face. For me that was about 35 years ago.

harry wales wrote:

CrossandCrew wrote:

I ran cross country and did crew in high school. The pain you get from crew was much worse than cross country. I almost blacked out from pushing hard in a race, that never would happen in cross country.

You don't push hard in crew; you pull. 2/10.

And rowing is the only sport in which you usually win while sitting on your butt going backwards. : P

Competitive cross country skier here. Skiing is significantly more work than running. I've never even one to fall down after racing, until this year. Twice I have had sprint finishes and collapsed afterwards. You finish going flat out, probably 20 mph on faster, you are absolutely spent. Now you gotta stop quickly because the finish area is so long. So you turn your ski sideways and in this motion you just kind of go down because you are so tired. You lay there, cheating heaving up and down. With skis and poles on its awkward to get up, so its generally easier to just lay there for 45 seconds and catch your breath. Its a great feeling.

I can speak only to running. I was a 1500/miler in HS and college and have, as many others writing here have, felt that crazy fatigue that comes on the last lap. After college, moved up to the road HM/marathon distances, and I experienced the pain about the same as the mile, but just built up longer at the later stages of the race and took longer to bounce back immediately after the race. But the deepest I have ever had to dig while running was in a really rugged 50 Mile trail ultra with a CR just under 9 hours. I have run a bunch of ultras, but nothing like this one. I had a great race. I started hallucinating with about 2 hours left and went crazy deep into the pain cave. Total beast mode. Nothing like it on the track or marathon. The pain just goes on for so long and you have to learn to love it, or just stop and walk.

"Hardest I ever had to dig.... trail ultra..... CR just under 9 ours......total beast mode..... you have to learn to love it"

Your post was completely irrelevant to the thread but I had a good laugh. Only thing you forgot to mention was how finishing was a major personal goal for you. Also, can you link me to your blog post about the race?

Mid D Guy wrote:

As far as I remember, X-country skiers typically have the highest VO2 max of any sport.

How can that be? Most of those guys are huge with massive upper bodies that the chicks dig (they look good in tights!). My understanding is V02max is correlated to lower body weight, ie. the lower the weight the higher VO2max potentially is and vice-versa. Nonetheless, those guys are awesome - no wonder I can't get any girls with this pencil-neck skinny body! ?

Yes.

And in the US, a person with a talent for basketball will do that over soccer (opposite is true in Europe). I think the bigger point here is that the more people that play a sport over a defined geographic area, the more difficult the competition within that area. Many people across the whole world run and play soccer. Relatively few cross country ski, or row for that matter. Therefore XC skiing and rowing may be harder on your body, but it is easier to win races at a high level since few people actually do these sports. Going to a D1 college and comparing the athletic ability of the football team to the lacrosse team is a good way of seeing this phenomenon.

lkj wrote:

Just don't make the comparison from watching distace races from the worlds or olympics where often they jog and then kick it in. So it seems like they are not that tired since most did not give an all out race from start to finish.

The point of a race, particularly a championship race, isn't to go "all out" from the start and finish completely exhausted. The point of the race is to cross the finish line first -- through whatever means necessary. It's not an exercise in masochism. Mo Farah has said he doesn't feel pain at all in a race until the last lap or two.

I want to be like those guys wrote:

Mid D Guy wrote:

As far as I remember, X-country skiers typically have the highest VO2 max of any sport.

How can that be? Most of those guys are huge with massive upper bodies that the chicks dig (they look good in tights!). My understanding is V02max is correlated to lower body weight, ie. the lower the weight the higher VO2max potentially is and vice-versa. Nonetheless, those guys are awesome - no wonder I can't get any girls with this pencil-neck skinny body! ?

Somebody already gave the answer. They have high VO2 max, but because of their size, they have lower VO2 relative to weight.

They have higher VO2max because XC skiing involves using more muscle groups, thus OXYGEN CONSUMPTION which is what VO2 means is higher because there are more muscles to feed. When you run is the legs that use most of oxygen, arms play little role, cycling is even more focused on the legs and then XC skiing uses all muscles literally.

So, if you perform a VO2max test on a fit XC skier, if the test is done Skiing the VO2max he will hit is higher than if he does the same test running.

Physiologist antaidoping wrote:

They have higher VO2max because XC skiing involves using more muscle groups, thus OXYGEN CONSUMPTION which is what VO2 means is higher because there are more muscles to feed. When you run is the legs that use most of oxygen, arms play little role, cycling is even more focused on the legs and then XC skiing uses all muscles literally.

So, if you perform a VO2max test on a fit XC skier, if the test is done Skiing the VO2max he will hit is higher than if he does the same test running.

So to compare fairly should you not be comparing VO2 maxes when doing the same activity?

this and this wrote:

I believe the level of competition on the global scale is much higher/deeper in running than skiing. Running as a sport can be practiced by many more people than skiing. The amount of prize money available, and the number of races, in running far exceeds that in skiing.

People like Ben True and others who were top skiers and runners almost always gravitate toward running at the end.

Very well said.

The most important factor in becoming an elite cross-country skier is being born into wealth and a cold climate. The sport's terrain and requirement for expensive equipment eliminates the vast majority of the world from competition from birth.

Any kid with access to enough food and water (and sometimes even not enough) has the opportunity to become an elite runner.

When comparing XC skiing to running, I would argue that even if the skiing races are harder, running is still a more difficult sport because of the day-to-day lifestyle it takes to be the best. Pain for 30 minutes is a walk in the park compared to growing up in East Africa and trying to make it as a professional runner.

fizziology wrote:

Physiologist antaidoping wrote:

They have higher VO2max because XC skiing involves using more muscle groups, thus OXYGEN CONSUMPTION which is what VO2 means is higher because there are more muscles to feed. When you run is the legs that use most of oxygen, arms play little role, cycling is even more focused on the legs and then XC skiing uses all muscles literally.

So, if you perform a VO2max test on a fit XC skier, if the test is done Skiing the VO2max he will hit is higher than if he does the same test running.

So to compare fairly should you not be comparing VO2 maxes when doing the same activity?

Exactly. It is useless to compare Klaebo's VO2max to Bekele's if one was tested skiing and the other running. It would also be unfair to compare both of them running as Klaebo's VO2max would be lower than his "max" because of peripheral fatigue (legs) as he is not used to the running action.

I'm always amazed by runners inability to give other sports props. Bros, running is still a tough and great sport. It hurts and its difficult. However, there's a few other sports (xc skiing/rowing) that put your body in a position of using more muscles and potentially making you hurt a bit more.

The smugness of y'all chest puffed out runners is hilarious.

Go to the local gym and jump on a erg. Spend a few sessions learning the basic technique. Do a 2k test. Maybe go out a bit too hard. The last 2 minutes is the most agonizing thing I've ever faced. The 2k lasts somewhere between 5min 40sec if you're the best in the world and about 8min if you're total hobby jogger mode.