Road Racing men Training Thread Week Ending 2-11-18

Pappy. The speed guy that comes to mind marathon wise that was not East African is Rod Dixon. 800 m medalist in olympics. But he was just an animal.

As far as Western training, Ritz is/was of course an outlier (I think once he ran 10 miles in training at half marathon pace!). But like the Kenyans, he would run 24 miles-40k at ~95%mp.

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=2201732

Jeremy, for your first marathon I wouldn’t focus on those kind of sessions or put too much stock in predictors (other than maybe a conservative estimate based on a half marathon time) A bread and butter workout could be some 20 milers first 10 steady, maybe 7:30/7:40 pace, next 5 maybe 7:15/7:20 then drop it down to marathon pace for the last 5. Of course build up to this kind of long run first.

You ran similar times, but judging from your 90-100mpw log with sub 30min 10k same week as 90 miles, and what Smoove has said in the past about his younger running (50-60mpw?)... I think you guys got to those times in very different ways.

I think sometimes you need to be careful when taking a whole group of people's work and trying to apply it to one person. For example in this case (just a theory): It could be that they take a whole huge group of speedy runners, train at high altitude, and just flog the crap out of the volume and workouts. Most of them don't survive it (injury, burnout), but a few really special ones do and come out the other side with incredible ability. If you tried to apply the same method to yourself, instead of getting a sampling of some of both results it'd be a lot more binary: you'd be awesome or you'd be out of the sport.

Back to Jeremy's marathon:

If you've got 4 weeks, I guess you've got 1-2 weeks to run as much as you can and then it's time to start to taper. The only "workout" or "indicator" I would do is practice some running in the 6:45-6:50 range. I might even emphasize doing that in the first part of runs or when feeling fresh instead of at the end. I'm guessing that feels easy for you, but if you're only goal really is to qualify for boston and you don't have a strong aerobic background, then my greatest concern for you would be going out too fast and falling apart. Speedy guy stretching the distance needs to keep things under control early.

runrincerepeat wrote:

Pappy. The speed guy that comes to mind marathon wise that was not East African is Rod Dixon. 800 m medalist in olympics. But he was just an animal.

LMAO you would pull out Rod Dixon. "All I want to do is drink beer and train like an animal"Rod DixonI forgot about him but wow he did have it all.

Too hot: I think one reason the canova athletes can handle 35k time trial is that they average 30k per day. For many on this thread, we're averaging closer to 15k/10M per day. We could all handle a 12M time trial. That's basically us running a half at goal MP. Hard during training but not unrealistic. That said it's still amazing but the weekly schedule of 13 runs per is what blows my mind.

BobbyTea wrote:

Too hot: I think one reason the canova athletes can handle 35k time trial is that they average 30k per day. For many on this thread, we're averaging closer to 15k/10M per day. We could all handle a 12M time trial. That's basically us running a half at goal MP. Hard during training but not unrealistic. That said it's still amazing but the weekly schedule of 13 runs per is what blows my mind.

I agree. It’s something that they build up to. The fact they can handle that much of a training load is probably as much a part of their “talent” as their engine.

Funny story about Peter Snell. The first thing Lydiard had him do when they first met was go out for a 22 mile run. Of course, Snell was already a well conditioned athlete but that still blows my mind.

Gordon that is exactly what I am saying with me and smoove. Although similar times we trained much differently to get there.

And I was not taking a whole group of people. I was referencing the E. Africans that were speed guys that became incredible marathoners. Kipchoge, Gebrselassie, Bekele, probably Farah soon. Kipsang I'd guess was always a strength runner so he would not be included.

And yes these guys are freak athletes but something in their training helped them move up.

Just because someone runs really fast at 1500 to 5000 doesn’t make them “speed guys.” The question is, what kind of training got them there.

too hot wrote:

Just because someone runs really fast at 1500 to 5000 doesn’t make them “speed guys.” The question is, what kind of training got them there.

You’re missing the point of what he’s saying and getting overly caught up in semantics.

Speaking of 35km long runs, Zane Robertson ran 35km in 1:55:05 today at 6800'. That's about 90% of MP or 95% if you account for the altitude. It must be nice to complete a 35km run in under 2hrs! I wonder if a more reasonable MP paced run for regular humans would be 90-95% of MP for 2hrs.

https://twitter.com/runninelvis/status/964761095859716096

I was crap at he 1500/mile because I just never developed at that distance because I didn't run in high school. And I don't think I'm necessarily a fast twitch guy. But I still consider myself

As coming from more of the speed side of things as I have more of a miler stride (long and loping, high heel lift, high knees), had better closing speed than most of my peers at the 5000 distance, and managed to race well off of low mileage.

Smoove wrote:

Those workouts would absolutely break me.

Smoove - You've mentioned in another thread you normally do a couple half marathons during your build. Curious what pace you target? I like using half's to benchmark my progress during a cycle, peaking around MP. I'm way behind you, though.

Y’all ever have some moronic lay person tell you running a lot is unhealthy and that you would ruin your body etc ? And what did you say back?

And Smoove. You def have a power stride!

runrincerepeat wrote:

Y’all ever have some moronic lay person tell you running a lot is unhealthy and that you would ruin your body etc ? And what did you say back?

And Smoove. You def have a power stride!

In all seriousness I say, “it depends.” Some people do take running to extremes and their predispositions to injury or illness end up making things worse.

The times I've run a half as part of a marathon cycle, I've run it a marathon pace (or attempted to).

This year will be a bit different maybe. I think I'm going to run Gasparilla at marathon pace next Sunday, and then use a crappy local half the following week to do a tempo/long run combo workout (or maybe the 2 x 5 miles at 102% of MP).

I think there is a fair amount of medical evidence that extreme exercise (and many of us fall into that category) can result in negative consequences. When I went through a bunch of tests after a false positive heart concern, I spoke to a cardiologist. In essence, he said that if we make it thorough our late 40s through out late 50s without sudden cardiac arrest - something we are at a higher risk for than the average person in the same age demographic, we aren't any worse off.

My personal take is that if I didn't run the way I do, I would drink a whole lot more and would weigh about 20-25 pounds more and might not run at all if I wasn't racing competitively. Balancing things out, I think I'm better off with the increased but still very low risk of sudden cardiac arrest than I would be living the alternative lifestyle (I'm not much of a happy-medium kind of guy, and I suspect a lot of us are that way).

Ha this dude was knuckles deep into a plate of nachos when he said it.. so I didn’t hold back. Might be a frosty reception next time I see the guy

I love nachos and running. Double dead.

Gordon. As long as you drink copious amounts of beer. The damages will be minimal.

Smoove wrote:

My personal take is that if I didn't run the way I do, I would drink a whole lot more and would weigh about 20-25 pounds more and might not run at all if I wasn't racing competitively. Balancing things out, I think I'm better off with the increased but still very low risk of sudden cardiac arrest than I would be living the alternative lifestyle (I'm not much of a happy-medium kind of guy, and I suspect a lot of us are that way).

I love those words. Same for me. Sometimes people ask me how I juggle all that stuff. It's a thing of efficiency and discipline. Running always made me more efficient even in my studies and job, it makes me mentally tougher and physically fit. Being quite an extreme character I might not live the healthiest life without running... so I keep it.