Forgot to add, my BQ target is 3:05, which is 3:00 to be sure
Forgot to add, my BQ target is 3:05, which is 3:00 to be sure
Ah...I was not considering 7:37 as "close to" 6:52.
Anyway, a lot of what would be a good indicator workout depends on what else your doing surrounding that workout. If you take a mini taper to to some sort of time trial type thing or if you're a low mileage runner it'll be easier to hit those indicators than say, Smoove's 80-90 mile weeks with 2-3 quality workouts.
My Chicago goal for now is sub 3, depending on how the year goes, but some benchmarks I'm thinking of include:
-A 1:25 half...preferably untapered, but we'll see
-Hit my (Hanson's specific workout of) 10 miles @MP in a 13-14 mile weekday run with a reasonable/stable heart rate and not pressing too hard to get there, during my 60-70mpw peak mileage weeks
-Fast finish an 18-20 mile long run close to goal pace...but probably only the last couple to 5 miles...
So I'm thinking of it more as a general feel and a couple smaller indications, not one specific indicator workout I psyche myself up for. Whether any of these are decent benchmarks...well...I guess I can let you know in October.
A lot of people swear by the 10easy/10MP workout. I've never tried it to speak personally to it.
Gordon Tremeshko wrote:
A lot of people swear by the 10easy/10MP workout. I've never tried it to speak personally to it.
I’ve done it. It’s a good indicator.
Sounds tough! Is the 10 easy steady E pace or easy progression to MP?
Pfitz HM fast finish long runs are say 17 miles progression with last 3 @ threshold. Which is tough. So for me would be like 8 Down to 6:30 and last 3 sub 6.
Pappy wrote:
If you were hoping for a 3 hour marathon what would be an ideal predictor then? I was thinking 2:30 at "close to target pace". Sorry, I didn't mean at target pace. If the target was 3 hours it would be 6:52 pace correct? 10% under pace would be 7:37 pace which is 45 seconds a mile slower than target pace.
Pappy, some stats from the last time I went sub-3 (2:56:03 -- 6:44/mi):
6 weeks out: 14 miles @ 7:02/mi
5 weeks out: 20 miles @ 7:45/mi
4 weeks out: Half marathon @ 6:19/mi
3 weeks out: 20 miles @ 7:48/mi
2 weeks out: 18 miles @ 8:23/mi
1 week out: 5K @ 5:38/mi
I think in terms of indicators, it is very, very individual. For me personally the best indicators are a combination of a coming into the build with a recent half marathon time and also workouts such as
30k at 98-100% goal mp (in training, not a race)
35k- 24 miles at about 95% goal mp (in training)
For me personally 10 miles at mp is not a strong enough indicator. I know Hanson’s limit the mp run to about 16 miles (for the runners in their actual training group). But, again very individual, if you look at Ritz’s training or kind of long runs Canova and Patrick Sang prescribe, it’s, at times, very high volume at quite close to race pace.
I’m not a Lydiard aficionado, but have read that 5 weeks out was a 35k “time trial”.
Pappy - Canova does go up to 40km, but I think mere mortals are extended around 30-32 km.
30-32 km is damn hard and a far reach from what a lot of western programs use.
Beyond 32 km, you need to be a special athlete with a few segments of 30-32s previously that can recover exceptionally well. Meaning, they are “elite” in their ability as a runner as well as their ability to recover.
I’d argue 10 and 10 is a very good workout, but not so much as an indicator. In my programs, I assign such a run about 10 weeks out. More in preparation for specific work to follow.
Those workouts would absolutely break me.
Allen:Thanks good to know. @ 3&5 weeks out you ran 20 mile runs at 13% over your race pace.
slo-twitch: So Lydiard, did a time trial at 84% of the distance 5 weeks out.
oplain:30-32k is probably the extreme for most western programs because the athletes are not able to have the luxury of a run, sleep, eat routine. "No one who works a forty hour week will ever beat me." Bill Rogers. So, are they special athletes or do they have more time to become good? Probably a little of both.
Smoove wrote:
Those workouts would absolutely break me.
Long MP workouts would seem to favor a strength runner over a speed runner.. but yeah those sound brutalll
Maybe that's the issue. I was a speed guy until my 40s (always focused on the 5k and the 5k is easily my best lifetime PR, even age adjusted) and still run with the stride of a speed oriented runner.
Why you thrive on those hard track workouts! The old adage. Fast runners need to train fast and slow runners slow!
I ran 25km @MP 4 weeks before the marathon, ran exactly the same pace at the marathon (2:58). but I'm a 3 hour marathoner, this is probably much harder for faster guys (and if anything easier if slower). When I did the 25km @MP, the course was flat and the weather was good. I made one other attempt prior to that for 20km @MP, it was a little bit too warm, and I failed miserably (20-25s/mi off pace). so that's probably more of a sufficient than a necessary condition.
This is great guys. As you guys know, my recent short distance PBs indicates 3 hr should be "easy" but I've only been running for less than two years and am aerobic baby.
I think I can do it by the end of the year if I follow a specific block, but Boston sign-ups are in September
Pappy wrote:
Allen:Thanks good to know. @ 3&5 weeks out you ran 20 mile runs at 13% over your race pace.
slo-twitch: So Lydiard, did a time trial at 84% of the distance 5 weeks out.
oplain:30-32k is probably the extreme for most western programs because the athletes are not able to have the luxury of a run, sleep, eat routine. "No one who works a forty hour week will ever beat me." Bill Rogers. So, are they special athletes or do they have more time to become good? Probably a little of both.
Perhaps. But it does take an athelete with a certain makeup and training experience where 40 km fast doesn’t “leave the race in training”
J - for 3 I don’t think you need many specific workouts (although I know you love them) I would just do a big block of high mileage. As many as you can jam in. And a few races closer to the marathon. You have wayyyyyyy more than enough speed for 3. Speed I can only dream of.
I have a question. What popular coaches have training blocks that help the speed type runners gain more aerobic endurance without breaking them for marathons?
The reason I ask is because of me and Smoove. As youths we ran almost identical times. Granted he is light years ahead of me now. I've knocked on Daniels in the past more than a few times. I find a lot of Daniels stuff very hard. Smoove thrives off of Daniels. Slo-twitch posted a couple of indicators that Smoove said would be difficult. When I read it I thought "30k may not be enough. 35k-24 miles might be perfect." One of the reasons I got back into running is the training and the differences in runners fascinates me.
The only really good marathoners I know of that were speed type runners maybe the E. Africans. They might just be super fast strength runners. Most of the good American marathoners started out from a strength running background. I'm not familiar enough with the Japanese or the Europeans to comment on them.
So I guess that leads to another question. If the E. Africans are taking speed guys and creating monster marathoners how are they making it work?
Jeremy:
I once ran a 16 miles at goal MP about 3 weeks out from the race and absolutely fell apart on race-day. I agree that indicators are a wash.
You’ll find that many elite runners including the East Africans do very hard 30K runs. That’s about as SPECIFIC as you can get.
That being said, I would argue that the best predictor is overall mileage and consistency during your build-up. Time on your feet is crucial especially for someone like you who is more fast twitch oriented.
And by the way, Lydiard did prescribe 35K “time trials” by which he meant 35K at 3/4 effort. That is what Canova has his runners doing. It always amazes me how those guys can handle it but it works!