Road Racing & Training Thread: Week Ending 04 Feb 2018

Allen1959 wrote:

too hot wrote:

Most of those coaches do not understand the difference between speed development and speed endurance. ... speed endurance training can cause sickness, staleness, overtraining, and loss of aerobic efficiency.

What is the difference? Are CV repeats (~10K race pace) "speed endurance"?

I am still a long ways from reintroducing workouts, but am starting to look beyond my typical 3K-5K paces for 800-1600 repeats and 15K-HM paces for long repeats. Thank you.

Allen, speed development is pure strides, alactic sprints, short hill sprints and strength training in the gym. Speed endurance are repeats done at high intensity (think 100m or so and longer) and with the effect of lowering blood pH. CV would be a type of speed endurance stimulus.

How is your knee? I’m running every other day now mostly pain free but just 3 miles at a time. Wondering if I should start running daily or keep the day off in between and extend those 3 milers.

Pappy -- thanks for the calculator link

too hot -- thanks for the info. My knee remains tender and uncomfortable. Not searing pain, but it hurts. I'm trying 7 miles every other day. Elliptical and strength on off days. May need to dial back the roadwork, again. Aargh. At my age there isn't much time left -- so setbacks are especially annoying!

Glad to hear you're pain-free at the moment. Which will you try first -- upping the mileage on "run" days, or reducing the number of "off" days?

Allen1959 wrote:

Pappy -- thanks for the calculator link

too hot -- thanks for the info. My knee remains tender and uncomfortable. Not searing pain, but it hurts. I'm trying 7 miles every other day. Elliptical and strength on off days. May need to dial back the roadwork, again. Aargh. At my age there isn't much time left -- so setbacks are especially annoying!

Glad to hear you're pain-free at the moment. Which will you try first -- upping the mileage on "run" days, or reducing the number of "off" days?

I try to separate the strengthening exercises from the runs as much as possible because I don’t want to overload the knee but perhaps it’s safe to do them right after the run. I’m tempted to try running at least 1 mile every day and see how that goes. One thing I know about runner’s knee is that the pain tends to come on as the run progresses.

too hot/Allen - My right knee, just below the kneecap, has been a little sore in the last 10 days or so. Nothing too bad. I gather it is from three 70+ weeks in a row?

Ran another flyer tonight. Thought I had possibly broken the 37:20 10k, but my watch did not ding at the end, and so I did not. I was a tad slower at the onset of my winding it up, and that must have been the difference. I finished faster than last week, though, going 5:47, 5:40, 0:44 in the last 2.13, and it did not even feel that fast...still had another half gear. The run felt very smooth and controlled, and I am all smiles, especially with the Olympics on tonight. Go USA!

too hot wrote:

Allen1959 wrote:

What is the difference? Are CV repeats (~10K race pace) "speed endurance"?

I am still a long ways from reintroducing workouts, but am starting to look beyond my typical 3K-5K paces for 800-1600 repeats and 15K-HM paces for long repeats. Thank you.

Allen, speed development is pure strides, alactic sprints, short hill sprints and strength training in the gym. Speed endurance are repeats done at high intensity (think 100m or so and longer) and with the effect of lowering blood pH. CV would be a type of speed endurance stimulus.

I have to disagree with you somewhat here too hot, although it might just be a difference of definitions.

Speed endurance is relative to the event. For a HM or marathoner then 10k pace is "speed endurance" or supporting the goal race from the speed side, but for 5k and down 10k pace is then endurance support.

Fast workout paces can also be used for aerobic development if the interval length is kept short (and even more if the rest period is tempo-cruise pace running). For an 800m runner stride the straights/ jog the curves or diagonals are a great aerobic workout. These can be progressed by increasing the volume or by increasing the recovery pace.

It's also important to consider whether speed endurance is being done on flat, rolling terrain or as a hill workout, as Lydiard knew well :). Here is a case study of 1 showing that a period of hill workouts maintained the lactate curve (aerobic) while increasing max lactate production (anaerobic). Then overdoing it with track workouts decreased aerobic endurance while not really increasing max lactate production.

You are absolutely right pewow. Just semantics. I equate speed endurance with anaerobic training but that it because of my Lydiard bias.

too hot wrote:

One thing I know about runner’s knee is that the pain tends to come on as the run progresses.

Yes, that has been my experience for the past nine months, but for six months prior to that, the discomfort was there for only the first couple miles of each run. Made it very easy to ignore.

What really seemed to push the problem from mildly annoying to nearly debilitating was the introduction of 12mm-drop shoes.

I had been training in 3mm-drop shoes for a year-and-a-half. But with plans to increase my mileage, I thought maybe more cushioning and support would be good.

I have a pair of almost brand new 12mm drop running shoes. They have sat under my bed for 2 years now for the same reason. ATM I have some Energy Boost pairs and a pair of Supernovas. I go back to the novas whenever my knees ache. They are almost to soft. Do you think the lower drop helps?

Generally, less drop equals less stress on knees, especially if you land mid-foot. More stress on achilles, though. I tried the big-drop shoes on the treadmill -- wasn't bad when I put the incline at 10 percent. But I was on it for only a few minutes.

I tried to move into lower drop shoes because of calf tightness on the theory that the lower drop would result in me engaging my calves through a fuller range of motion, which would be good for tight calves over the long term. It just made things worse, and I went back to my standard 10mm drop shoes - the now defunct Adidas Sequence.

Yeah my Mizuno Sayonara trainers I been in for 2 years are 9mm drop. Hitogamis are 7 I think.

Legs finally got some freshness in them this morning. I was starting to worry. Forecast for race looks like 30 and rainy/mixy. BRING THAT S**T ON!!

The only time I had knee pain was when I upped mileage. Once I got used to it the pains stopped. Pretty sure it was "runner's knee" pain just below or under the kneecap. It hurt when I tried to do leg extensions.

I also run in Adidas but I absolutely hate everything about the new supernova and energy boost. They made them too soft and bulky. I managed to find a pair of glide 8 last month but my favorite shoe is the Boston 6, it's light but has enough cushion even for long runs.

runrincerepeat wrote:

Yeah my Mizuno Sayonara trainers I been in for 2 years are 9mm drop. Hitogamis are 7 I think.

Legs finally got some freshness in them this morning. I was starting to worry. Forecast for race looks like 30 and rainy/mixy. BRING THAT S**T ON!!

There's a local, pretty big, 5k near me tomorrow. 6-9" snow today and another couple schedule for tomorrow. Don't think anybody will be setting a course record out there.

I've been trying to find some Boston 6's to try on. Closest store to carry them maybe a 3 hour drive. The Energy Boosts were $30 each so I couldn't pass that up. The Supernovas are decent but I have heard from almost everyone the old models were much better.

Good luck in your races this weekend. I always enjoy when the weather is poor. I always feel it gives me an advantage when so many others cry over the conditions.

I'll be on the treadmills again this weekend. I'm beginning to dislike a couple people at the Y I go to. They always talk running and put on airs when I have mentioned things to them. I just listen to their conversations now. Once I get in shape I may start showing up at their races for some fun.

Try that site. It generally will show the cheapest website for the model. I have been buying sayonara 3s on Ebay and trying to stockpile my size, as it has kept me healthy and they are discontinued.

I ran in the Supernova Sequence for about 3 or 4 years. A lot of shoe for a 5' 8" 145 pound guy, but with my long stride and heavy heel strike, I really liked the cushioning, and while they are clunky, the Boost material kept them relatively light.

I thoroughly dislike the replacement Supernova ST. I think I would be fine with it except for one glaring difference - the heel counter on the ST is split and has hard plastic on the sides, but is just the upper material right down the middle. I imagine this might be good for those who have had Achilles issues, but I have trouble doing anything but easy distance in them because once I get to tempo pace or faster, I feel like my foot starts to come out of the shoe because the complete hard heel counter from the Sequence tat locked my foot into place is gone. Given you are not cranking too hard yet, that flaw should not be an issue for you though.

I love my Boston Boost 6s, but they were splitting at the sides after just 200 miles or so. I went up a half-size this time and they don't look like they are gonna split.

I love them, but I have really narrow feet. I can't imagine people with normal to wide feet being about to train in them.

I went from "minimalist" to those about a year and a half ago. I kinda worry that because there's so much "Boost" in the heal and mid-foot, they kinda reward shitty form.

That is one reason I have always been a mizuno fan boy. I love the firm feel/road feel.. and they are just durable as hail. I can get 750+ Miles out of the Sayonara. When new I use them for long runs, then transition them to regular run wear, then to recovery run wear.

I went up a half size in the Bostons because I do not have a narrow foot and they work great that way, though maybe a little sloppy if I get going really quick, compared to my NB 1400s anyway. Great for my marathon though. ~200 miles with no real signs of wear anywhere on one pair with a second pair lying in wait because they were on sale.

Smoove, if you want slight stability and a tempo shoe with boost...Do you have any experience with the Adidas Tempo Boost? Less shoe than the sequence...I think maybe it's just a stabler Boston?