Just reading this before
"As far as your general question about the testing, I think the testing is a joke, and it can’t be enforced universally. To give two examples, you’d need to build a lab in Kenya and build a lab in Jamaica."
Just reading this before
"As far as your general question about the testing, I think the testing is a joke, and it can’t be enforced universally. To give two examples, you’d need to build a lab in Kenya and build a lab in Jamaica."
Rather ironic that with one breath you can smear a whole country, and then close with an accusation that "guys here who assume 'everybody dopes'" are projecting their own personal inherent cheating onto whole populations out of some insecure need to believe that everyone is the same. Judge not lest ye be judged. If you think "It's ridiculous that Russia is banned", does that mean you would be in favor of lifting the ban, in order to restore parity with countries like Morocco? Just asking where you stand. Clearly the downside of a blanket ban is it also punishes innocent athletes, and therefore fails to achieve WADA's goal of protecting innocent athletes. We saw from the IAAF leaked blood tests, that only 24% of Moroccans had high blood values (not necessarily due to doping). If we also "ban" Morocco, we'd have to take a closer look at banning Ukraine, Turkey, and Greece too, as a matter of equity and consistency. Morocco was the 5th highest nation with high blood values (again not necessarily due to doping). Someone else argued that we should ban Kenya too, if we ban Morocco. From a leaked blood point of view, Kenya was outside the top 10 nations with high blood values (not necessarily due to doping). So we'd have to consider a ban on Bulgaria, Bahrain, Belarus, Slovenia, Romania, Brazil, Spain, Holland, and Columbia too, again for the sake of equity and consistency. Kenya came in at a rather low 11% of athletes with high blood values (not necessarily due to doping), meaning that 8 out of 9 athletes never recorded high blood values. If we want to take that further down to Ethiopia, then we need to consider Jamaica, Portugal, Slovakia, Qatar, and Cuba too. Not sure how cheating on taxes is relevant to doping -- one can be a tax cheat or a dope cheat without being both. But don't you think that a tax cheat would also say: "Personally, I've never cheated on my tax, or even been inclined to do so." Tax cheaters and non-tax cheaters alike will claim their innocence. And cynics will say "thou doth protest too much", and interpret your declaration of innocence as evidence that you cheat on your taxes. That's what happens with doping. Who do you think is defending corrupt athletic cultures? Personally, I think if someone is caught committing an ADRV, they should be sanctioned to the full extent foreseen within WADA guidelines. That's the agreement that everyone signs up to. I also believe in the principle of "innocent until proven guilty".
Coevett wrote:
rekrunner wrote:
They are getting bad advice, period.
They're just examples of a dirty, corrupt, cheating culture and can't stop themselves.
It's ridiculous that Russia is banned while Morocco is allowed to continue competing. Even if the Moroccan authorities aren't supplying the drug cheats or covering up for them, they are complicit in allowing such a culture.
It's ironic because Russian athletes are universally banned because of the (alleged) wrongdoing of their federation, yet Moroccan athletes are doping en masse off their own back, and allowed to compete (apart from the real idiots forgot to microdose or time their injections right).
In countries like Morocco they barely even bother collecting taxes because they know the people wont honestly report. In the Uk, Germany, USA, most people do honestly report, although large percentages either commit fraud or engage in dodgy tax avoidance schemes. Personally, I've never cheated on my tax, or even been inclined to do so. Do the guys here who assume 'everbody dopes' also assume that 'everbody cheats on their taxes'? Sounds a bit like you lot are so insistant in defending corrupt athletic cultures because you're inherent cheaters yourself, and need to believe that EVERYBODY else is the same.
rekrunner wrote:
Rather ironic that with one breath you can smear a whole country, and then close with an accusation that "guys here who assume 'everybody dopes'" are projecting their own personal inherent cheating onto whole populations out of some insecure need to believe that everyone is the same. Judge not lest ye be judged.
If you think "It's ridiculous that Russia is banned", does that mean you would be in favor of lifting the ban, in order to restore parity with countries like Morocco? Just asking where you stand. Clearly the downside of a blanket ban is it also punishes innocent athletes, and therefore fails to achieve WADA's goal of protecting innocent athletes.
We saw from the IAAF leaked blood tests, that only 24% of Moroccans had high blood values (not necessarily due to doping). If we also "ban" Morocco, we'd have to take a closer look at banning Ukraine, Turkey, and Greece too, as a matter of equity and consistency. Morocco was the 5th highest nation with high blood values (again not necessarily due to doping).
Someone else argued that we should ban Kenya too, if we ban Morocco. From a leaked blood point of view, Kenya was outside the top 10 nations with high blood values (not necessarily due to doping). So we'd have to consider a ban on Bulgaria, Bahrain, Belarus, Slovenia, Romania, Brazil, Spain, Holland, and Columbia too, again for the sake of equity and consistency. Kenya came in at a rather low 11% of athletes with high blood values (not necessarily due to doping), meaning that 8 out of 9 athletes never recorded high blood values.
If we want to take that further down to Ethiopia, then we need to consider Jamaica, Portugal, Slovakia, Qatar, and Cuba too.
Not sure how cheating on taxes is relevant to doping -- one can be a tax cheat or a dope cheat without being both. But don't you think that a tax cheat would also say: "Personally, I've never cheated on my tax, or even been inclined to do so." Tax cheaters and non-tax cheaters alike will claim their innocence. And cynics will say "thou doth protest too much", and interpret your declaration of innocence as evidence that you cheat on your taxes. That's what happens with doping.
Who do you think is defending corrupt athletic cultures? Personally, I think if someone is caught committing an ADRV, they should be sanctioned to the full extent foreseen within WADA guidelines. That's the agreement that everyone signs up to. I also believe in the principle of "innocent until proven guilty".
Why not go by the hard evidence such as drug positives, ABP sanctions & corruption. As you said, high blood values aren't "necessarily due to doping" and says nothing about androgen & GH use (so why are you putting so much evidence on that?).
As I posted up thread, Russia is the scapegoat here. Why does Russia get banned and Kenya & Morocco skate? Once again, over *40* doping positives with Kenyan runners since 2011 & major allegations of widespread corruption:
http://www.bbc.com/sport/athletics/35551486*37* doping positives with Morrocan runners since 2003, with the majority of these in just the last 4 yrs!
https://www.insidethegames.biz/articles/1035276/ethiopia-morocco-kenya-ukraine-and-belarus-warned-by-iaaf-over-drug-testing-programmesToo much favoritism here - just blame Russia for all the world's doping problems seems to be the theme with the IAAF.
Que Sera Sera...
Subway Surfers Addiction wrote:
Just reading this before
https://www.runnersworld.com/elite-runners/former-nike-oregon-project-coach-not-surprised-by-doping-allegations"As far as your general question about the testing, I think the testing is a joke, and it can’t be enforced universally. To give two examples, you’d need to build a lab in Kenya and build a lab in Jamaica."
Leaving aside the question as to whether they are actually crossing the line and breaking the rules or actually doping, when you read an article like that and see what is going on in the Oregon Project (TUEs, hypoxic houses, l-carnitine injections every 6 hours) it's crazy people are surprised that Mo Farah was able to break Cram's 1500m UK record on a Mondo track 30 years later, or that Rupp can claim to be the 'greatest ever white distance runner'. I doubt if Rod Dixon knew what a hypoxic house or a l-carnitine injection was, and the only TUE he had was for a couple of pints each night, maybe 3 before a big race. Coe, Cram, Ovett would be running 3:25 today with those kind of aids even without any EPO.
Getting back to your original question, no one is going to test positive. But there has to be some ethics, there has to be some honor, there has to be some accountability.
And the hypoxic houses, and the this and the that, it all costs hundreds of thousands of dollars.
RW: That’s the sort of thing Nick Willis is questioning. Setting aside potentially illegal scenarios, his sentiment is that it shouldn’t be necessary to do all this other stuff.
JC: There are a lot of great coaches who are knowledgeable who think they can outwork this by being tough, hardworking coaches. I honestly think they’re fooling themselves.
I'm all in favor of going by the hard evidence, such as drug positives, ABP sanctions & corruption. I'm actually not in favor of a blanket ban either, without a serious path for innocent athletes to be able to compete. Having said that, I guess what separates Russia from Kenya and Morocco is the hard evidence of pro-active massive tampering of the hard evidence on a national scale, at the highest level in the Russian Sports Ministry and government agencies. Russia is being blamed for Russia's anti-doping obstruction problem. And Russia can only blame itself for not achieving the milestones that the IAAF and WADA laid out to restore their status, before Rio 2016. It was achievable with an internal will to achieve it. I feel sorry for innocent Russians, but Russia is not blameless at causing and prolonging their own predicament.
On the outside looking in wrote:
Why not go by the hard evidence such as drug positives, ABP sanctions & corruption. As you said, high blood values aren't "necessarily due to doping" and says nothing about androgen & GH use (so why are you putting so much evidence on that?).
As I posted up thread, Russia is the scapegoat here. Why does Russia get banned and Kenya & Morocco skate? Once again, over *40* doping positives with Kenyan runners since 2011 & major allegations of widespread corruption:
*37* doping positives with Morrocan runners since 2003, with the majority of these in just the last 4 yrs!
Too much favoritism here - just blame Russia for all the world's doping problems seems to be the theme with the IAAF.
Que Sera Sera...
rekrunner wrote:
I'm all in favor of going by the hard evidence, such as drug positives, ABP sanctions & corruption. I'm actually not in favor of a blanket ban either, without a serious path for innocent athletes to be able to compete.
Having said that, I guess what separates Russia from Kenya and Morocco is the hard evidence of pro-active massive tampering of the hard evidence on a national scale, at the highest level in the Russian Sports Ministry and government agencies.
Russia is being blamed for Russia's anti-doping obstruction problem. And Russia can only blame itself for not achieving the milestones that the IAAF and WADA laid out to restore their status, before Rio 2016. It was achievable with an internal will to achieve it.
I feel sorry for innocent Russians, but Russia is not blameless at causing and prolonging their own predicament.
Say what? Are you a politician or considering a career in politics? If not, you should - you spin things and dodge the point I made. It's clear favoritism with Kenya. You ban the Russians...you ban the Kenyans. There's well documented corruption with their athletes and 42 doping positives counting the most recent with Sumgong. Banning the Kenyans may not do well for the TV ratings but too bad. If you have an abundance of doping positives/sanctions & corruption with more than one country, you just can't pick & chose which countries you want to ban and which ones you don't. All should be banned - equal punishment. No exceptions!
wow i feel so dumb...i wasted so much time scrolling down page after page and found that 99% of this thread is pointless.
so for anyone wanting a quick summary and avoid the stupidity here it is.
-aouita, good but on EPO could he have been as fast as el G
-no
-yes idiot, intrinsic this, do you not know basic math, moron, jim ryun, swallow my own jizz and call people f*cking idiots and will never be banned, oh and i am not vent i have no idea who that is
-EPO doesnt work, now i will be more annoying that vent with my quotes of your quotes of my quotes, and keep repeating how everyone is wrong and my opinion is the gold standard. i ramble on and cause chaos and get others banned when they call me out.
in short vent and rekrunner are waaaaaaay smarter than everyone else, and if you dont agree with them they will insult you. rekrunner does it way more subtle and PC, but its still super annoying. and for the love of god enough of the quotes within quotes withing quotes, it is so annoying.
bottom line, vent/calculo is the architect from the matrix and he knows more about nothing than you will ever know. he is a math genius, so when crunches numbers and jim ryun ran a 3'24, dont argue, instead praise him and thank him for fixing the wrongs of history! and rekrunner, he is like the oracle, PC to the max when he insults and argues with you, and again he knows more and is more sensitive to all things that vent/calculos calculator cant do. vent/calculo knows what a person ran in 1968 in perfect fantasy conditions, and rekrunner is here to tell you all that they did it clean, and if they were to take PEDs they would have run slower!
so again if you dont want to read all the pages here is the summary
everyone is an idiot moran
PEDs dont work, go ahead and argue i will get you banned
lols i guess i put an end to the gurus of track and fields bashing all us infidels. no worries someone will start a new thread about some old timer and was he as fast at mo/rupp/centro/kiprop.......and sure as the sun rises letsruns finest will reply with their infinite knowledge, that
1) they ran a WR intrinsically, but its still not as fast as jim ryun, and we are all idiots
2) they are clean and everyone is clean except ben johnson, he is the only one in the history of track and field that actually IMPROVED by taking PEDs, everyone else gets slower, and again we are all idiots but explained to us very PC.
Don't forget that the 40+ Kenyans were banned, as were the 37 Moroccans. I didn't spin and dodge your point, but attacked it head on. Russia tampered with the doping samples in a way that Kenya and Morocco did not. Of course equal crimes should mean equal punishment. But we simply do not have equal crimes.
On the outside looking in wrote:
Say what? Are you a politician or considering a career in politics? If not, you should - you spin things and dodge the point I made. It's clear favoritism with Kenya. You ban the Russians...you ban the Kenyans. There's well documented corruption with their athletes and 42 doping positives counting the most recent with Sumgong. Banning the Kenyans may not do well for the TV ratings but too bad. If you have an abundance of doping positives/sanctions & corruption with more than one country, you just can't pick & chose which countries you want to ban and which ones you don't. All should be banned - equal punishment. No exceptions!
busted for what? PEDs dont work, this is why the russians are in so much trouble! kenyans halfway admit to taking something that doesnt work, but the russians deny and cover up...mostly from embarrassment. see they were told they could compete with the USA, Jamaica, and kenya if they took the "sauce". they tried super had and realized it didnt work and they were PISSED. then all the hacking and messing with our election.
if you are dumb enough to take PEDs, which they should actually be called "Non-performance waste of money drugs" or NPWMD, you make up an excuse, cause its an embarrassment to be caught using something that doesnt work. the more ridiculous the excuse the more likely to get a slap on the wrist.
try these out if you ever become mindweak and take NPWMD's
-it was tainted beef
-someone spiked my toothpaste/gatorade/lipbalm
-a rouge masseuse rubbed on some cream
-a trusted friend betrayed me
-it was my first time, i was out of shape and thought it was the only way i could manage, without racing i would be homeless
-i had a few beers and had sex with my partner 6 times in a row
-high altitude training and extremely dehydrated
-thyroid issues
and my all time favorite
-i never took any, this is all natural talent!
The interesting thing is that Mo, Willis, Iguider etc haven't run faster than 3:31/32 outside of Monaco. Some say it is organisation/setup/timing others the track.
m!ndweak wrote:
wow i feel so dumb...i wasted so much time scrolling down page after page and found that 99% of this thread is pointless.
so for anyone wanting a quick summary and avoid the stupidity here it is.
-aouita, good but on EPO could he have been as fast as el G
-no
-yes idiot, intrinsic this, do you not know basic math, moron, jim ryun, swallow my own jizz and call people f*cking idiots and will never be banned, oh and i am not vent i have no idea who that is
-EPO doesnt work, now i will be more annoying that vent with my quotes of your quotes of my quotes, and keep repeating how everyone is wrong and my opinion is the gold standard. i ramble on and cause chaos and get others banned when they call me out.
in short vent and rekrunner are waaaaaaay smarter than everyone else, and if you dont agree with them they will insult you. rekrunner does it way more subtle and PC, but its still super annoying. and for the love of god enough of the quotes within quotes withing quotes, it is so annoying.
bottom line, vent/calculo is the architect from the matrix and he knows more about nothing than you will ever know. he is a math genius, so when crunches numbers and jim ryun ran a 3'24, dont argue, instead praise him and thank him for fixing the wrongs of history! and rekrunner, he is like the oracle, PC to the max when he insults and argues with you, and again he knows more and is more sensitive to all things that vent/calculos calculator cant do. vent/calculo knows what a person ran in 1968 in perfect fantasy conditions, and rekrunner is here to tell you all that they did it clean, and if they were to take PEDs they would have run slower!
so again if you dont want to read all the pages here is the summary
everyone is an idiot moran
PEDs dont work, go ahead and argue i will get you banned
I almost missed this, I can't stop laughing. ?
m!ndweak wrote:
-it was tainted beef
-someone spiked my toothpaste/gatorade/lipbalm
-a rouge masseuse rubbed on some cream
-a trusted friend betrayed me
-it was my first time, i was out of shape and thought it was the only way i could manage, without racing i would be homeless
-i had a few beers and had sex with my partner 6 times in a row
-high altitude training and extremely dehydrated
-thyroid issues
and my all time favorite
-i never took any, this is all natural talent!
Don't forget
- EPO puddles
- disappearing twin
- lots of plyometrics and pilates.
Just got bitten by a mosquito wrote:
m!ndweak wrote:
-it was tainted beef
-someone spiked my toothpaste/gatorade/lipbalm
-a rouge masseuse rubbed on some cream
-a trusted friend betrayed me
-it was my first time, i was out of shape and thought it was the only way i could manage, without racing i would be homeless
-i had a few beers and had sex with my partner 6 times in a row
-high altitude training and extremely dehydrated
-thyroid issues
and my all time favorite
-i never took any, this is all natural talent!
Don't forget
- EPO puddles
- disappearing twin
- lots of plyometrics and pilates.
And
- measurement errors
- boxjumps
- situps
- plasma shift
And the letsrun trolls believe them all.
And
- lost the paperwork ("Mom, the dog ate my homework")
- quiet doorbell as "compelling justification" to miss a test
What's best: both excuses were accepted as valid by UKAD.
casual obsever wrote:
And
- lost the paperwork ("Mom, the dog ate my homework")
- quiet doorbell as "compelling justification" to miss a test
What's best: both excuses were accepted as valid by UKAD.
When it comes to anything involving a doorbell, knock on the door, etc., I can't help but think of this: ?
https://youtu.be/SECVGN4Bsgghaha you are welcome....oh and i forgot some on the list of excuses why you took drugs that dont work
-i kissed a tranny and his/her/it saliva was contaminated
-basic intrnisic so im worth a 3'27, but only on 7 lane track
m!ndweak wrote:
haha you are welcome....oh and i forgot some on the list of excuses why you took drugs that dont work
-i kissed a tranny and his/her/it saliva was contaminated
-basic intrnisic so im worth a 3'27, but only on 7 lane track
If 7 lanes are bad, try 6 lanes, that's just Mickey-mouse.
mickey mouse only if you dont know basic math!
are you dunce?
track and field is a joke!
casual obsever wrote:
Just got bitten by a mosquito wrote:
Don't forget
- EPO puddles
- disappearing twin
- lots of plyometrics and pilates.
And
- measurement errors
- boxjumps
- situps
- plasma shift
And the letsrun trolls believe them all.
Box jumps that's new.
You forgot press ups. Guaranteed to take you from 3:34/13:08 3:28/12:53 in next to no time.