Said Aouita with EPO - how fast?

no

you forget mo 3'33.9pb before monaco-'13

all but one said he coud go no better than 3'30/3'31

one said 3'28

similarly, Henry in '78, perhaps even semi-recovered off booze in '81/'82 was off mo example if offered fast pace to bell in

~ 3'30

his 13'06WR in '81 when hugely hammered body of many many years shouda been ~ 12'40 at worst if fully rested for it off 0 booze from '77

what shape were his legs in lining up for that 13'06 ???

it is not humanly possibly to run something like 12 miles in 1 hour in morning off massive hangover with all the wrecking toxins & run semi-decently paced 13'06 later in day without being intrinsically in ideal rested/toxin free shape of

~ 12'40

Winning wrote:

It wasn't around until the 1990s.

To the original question, epo doesn't work it it just a placebo effect.

You sure about that Chico? Why do they give it to all the Cancer treatment patients who have treatment-induced anemia and low hematocrit?

calculo wrote:

Aouita didn't test toxoplasmosis +ve which is ~ 100% certainty of doping from administered external blood transfusions !!!

Can you please elaborate in better English, rather than you usual track-hipster-slang, on what this means? I have been to the Doctor (I am terribly sick) last week and he told me he tested me for Toxoplasmosis the last round. He said I was NEGATIVE. The thing is, I HAVE had a blood transfusion before.

It seems like you are stating that ALL transfused blood carries Toxoplasmosis?

I like Moroccan Runners wrote:

Do your homework wrote:

He was based out of Italy and Spain 9 months of the year. As stated ad nauseum, he had acccess to EVERYTHING.

Well...if you did your homework you would've posted a link or something verifying that he was really in Italy that long. And as far as Spain is concerned? Big deal...it's right across the Strait of Gibraltar (maybe he was interested in the Señoritas or the fine wine over there). Besides, doping didn't get rocking in Spain until the mid-90s when EPO was the hot item with athletics & cycling.

Aouita was arguably the most versatile distance runner ever.

I like Moroccan runners.

Aouita was great and I wish we had a personality like him around now. With the internet, it would be the most entertaining thing I can imagine, besides Pre coming back to life.

However, your assertion about drugs in Spain is false. Drugs have been rife in Spain and Italy since at least 1940. I cannot say if they were prevalent before that because I have not seen first-hand admissions of doping, but it very well may have been. It very well may have been heavily used in other sports besides Cycling, I don't know about other sports. But I do know about Cycling and if you know ANYTHING about the 1940s era, you knew about the Campionissimo.

To Coppi:

Question: Do cyclists take la bomba (amphetamine)?

Answer: Yes, and those who claim otherwise, it's not worth talking to them about cycling.

Question: And you, did you take la bomba?

Answer: Yes. Whenever it was necessary.

Question: And when was it necessary?

Answer: Almost all the time![37][38]

Coevett wrote:It's funny how the experts here always claim that Ovett would never have been as good a 5000m runner as guys like Coghlan, Moorcroft etc even though all those guys were only 5000m runners because they could no longer compete with Ovett and Coe at 1500 and whenever Ovett did dabble in the 5000m or longer distances for fun (1978-81), he showed light years greater potential then they had until they moved up full time

utterly clueless

ovett got hammered by Yifter in '77 over 5k, year of dusseldorf !!!

ovett got crushed by Henry early year in '78 over 3k in london !!!

ask ovett if he expected to beat Henry when fresh ???

he already got crushed by him by 4s !!! over 3k with meagre 7'43

Henry coud kick well enough to destroy ovett & he did by 4s & it didn't need 5k to do it !!!

Ugh. There goes another good thread down the tubes. Break the wrist and walk away.

calculo wrote:

Subway Surfers Addiction wrote:Aouita had access to everything westerners had available to them

idiot

then explain why westerners coudn't run 3'29.71 with ~ 13m !!! extra wide on bends with kick of 52.7 !!! with some of that included wide running on penultimate bend !!, all with little drafting

->

3'28-flat if route-1 !!!

with intrinsic 52-low kick !!!

->

~ 3'26-mid

explain why westerners were not in this shape in '85 ???

in fact no westerner has been ever in this shape in synthetic track era

why is that when westerners have truck-loads more $$$ than africans & better facilities/coaching/physiologists/nutritionists/etc/etc ...!!!

how was he capable of 3'26-mid in '85 & no westerner in synthetic track era has ever been ???

0/10 ?

+1 I'd say you scored a KO on that clown. Good job!

clueless

he was 5k/10k runner, unknown over 1500

same as mo was 5k/10k guy & had 3'33.9pb, then crushed 3'28.8

yifter may well have been close to 3'31/3'32 in '80, definitely close to this in '76 but screwed out of games

you think yifter with his legendary kick coudn't have competed in slow-ass 1500 of '76 ???

did you not watch that rubbish 1500 in '76 ???

utter drivel

what part of

"coghlan - european mile record holder"

you didn't watch in '75 ???

completely clueless !!!

coghlan was face of western mileing in '75, seeing that Ryun had decrepited since '72

he clearly stated that indoors he chased clock, outdoors he ran tactical

why did you not comprehend this when told you years ago ???

utterly laughable !!!

coe in his wildest dreams woud never have broke 13'20 in '78

in '80 it woud not be better

coe had such laughable 3k, it's beyond pathetic, utter total rubbish 3k, so claiming any serious 5k is utter nonsense

to claim he was any interest to anyone ever over 5k is utter total nonsense !

The French were desperate for him to take on French nationality, and he only declined when he went to Italy. Why are you so adamant in defending a doped up cheater. To prove your creepy thesis that only Africans can run? A rule to which there is just one exception in human history - Jim Ryun, who it happens could also run seconds even at 800 m than the best that Africa can produce today.

Aouita was completely broken down after 90. He was only able to run hard in every race from 800 to 10000 year after year because of PEDs (particularly the new HGH). Eventually, though even a medically enhanced superhuman body will break down from that inhuman stress - even El G discovered that (although it's 50/50 that he was also wanting out before the testing came in).

So the fact that Aouita's Belgian doctor was busted for supplying multiple athletes and cyclists with PEDs is irrelevant because he was only busted after Aouita had retired? What? Is that the same excuse you'll give for Beyer?

1980's whites couldn't run hypothetical 3:26 like a hypothetical Aouita because unhypothetically they were not juiced up with blood doping, steroids, and the recently released (in the USA) new form of HGH which Aouita was later to be so gushing of in his praise when advising his Ozzie athletes to cheat.

Aouita is the best evidence that the 80's Middle-Distance was clean (up to him, and apart from the Eastern Bloc). His times and 'range' were consistant with what we observed the EPO guys running just a decade later, especially Moroccans. His 'range' stood out simply because of the ridiculous PED use. in a relatively clean era Ten years later, his 10000m time wouldn't even rate a mention. EL G, pumped up with EPO, could have ran it in his sleep. The difference was the best juiced up Moroccans just 10 years later were running 3:26 (and not hypothetically but every other week) and 12:50. A clean 16 year old Norwegian ran a 3000 SC on his debut last year in a time similar to Aouitas back then. Aouita was a manufactured fake athlete who whose 'range' was the largely a byproduct of dodging Coe, Cram, and Ovett - all three of them almost certainly clean athletes with immeasurably more natural talent than that cheat.

Diabalo wrote:

It was a 52.9 last lap and he ran 10m wide over the duration of race. Of that about 2 m was on penultimate bend. That makes it a 52.6 in a 3:28 low at best. And he had Cram ahead of him dragging every ounce out of his doped up system.

Yes, and Cram wasn't even at this best that night. He'd been suffering from his cursed calf problems for the previous few weeks, had gotten beat by Tom McKean in an 800m a week before and had pull out of his next race when his calves where hurting. That's why all the talk before that Nice 'showdown' (how we remember it now) was about Cruz smashing the 1500 WR, LOL!

Cram was at his best in the couple of weeks he broke the Mile record, the 2000m, beat Cruz over 800m in 1:42, and came within a second of Coe's 1000m WR in a blustery Gateshead. He would have destroyed Aouita in that period. Aouita had at least two chances in 1985 to run sub 3:29 and he didn't get close. Cram clearly had plenty to spare in his Mile WR. With better pacing I've read he could have gone 3:45 flat that night which would be around 3:28 flat for 1500m, probably way faster than Aouita was ever capable of, even with all the blood doping, HGH, and roids.

Cram himself says his best night of his career was the 1000m in Gateshead where he ran within a second of Coe in treacherous conditions, and still I think the 3rd fastest 1000m time ever. He said he regrets now not running the Mile that night, and thinks even in those conditions in Gateshead he might have run sub 3:46 he was feeling that good.

I think Cram's Mile run in Oslo represented the peak of athletics popularity in Europe. That was the second major meet held there that season (Cram had already ran a 3:31 1500m earlier in the season on the same track). Outside of the Olympics/World Champs you will never get that level of crowd enthusiasm for middle-distance again.

Talk about a G_d complex! You are not 'the One'. You have said lots of things, unfortunately, over the years, which have been nonsense and not materialised. So you got lucky once. Big deal. Even a broken clock tells the right time twice a day. And what is more, it was exactly that performance in Monaco (where everyone's times are about 2 secs faster than athletes run anywhere else!) over 1500m that raised so many eyebrows from those in the sport that knew this was at odds with what he had done/was capable of. It was after this that certain questions were raised and certain practices in the grey area came to the fore.

I like the way you use words such as 'perhaps' or 'even'. There is no evidence whatsoever that Rono could run 3:30 in any condition.

The suggestion he could run 12:40 is equally meaningless. It is a random number you have chosen based on nothing.

There is no converter for time run in a 5k based on how many pints someone has consumed. No measurements were taken of toxins in his blood. And Rono was well known for exaggerating and spinning a yarn.

Of course with no alcohol and more dedication he was capable of faster times, almost certainly under 13:00, but specifying a number like 12:40 is silly and one that no evidence supports. Nothing else he did suggests the same ability as Bekele.

calculo wrote:

as for grossetto 36.1 finish in 3'34.8, that coud easily be into 3'25...

that isn't extraordinary

in '85

it's off the scale what grosseto 36.14 kick in 3'34.82 was worth ???

only Ryun, himself couda combatted that

Video footage of that alleged split in Grosseto has never materialised. I have another race of Aouita's on dvd during the 84 season where the clock for the 1200m split time stopped in the wrong place, almost 2 secs after the actual line, giving a totally wrong time, which obviously affected all the other splits of the race. Said88, a noted Aouita fan, has also seen this race and can corroborate the mistake made by the organisers. He would also agree that this supposed 36.1 in a 3:34 is almost certainly not accurate.

especially that he was almost certainly juiced to the gills

calculo wrote:

utter drivel

where is his :

toxoplasmosis +ve ???

You know well enough that millions of people have toxoplasmosis, and that those with a surpressed immune system, such as athletes putting extreme stresses on their body through repetitive intense training, can develop symptoms that are reminiscent of glandular fever, which will therefore effect performance by just a couple of %. That is the difference between winning in 1:42 and being beaten by other elites and running a 1:45.

The vast majority of those whose toxoplasmosis needs medical treatment DID NOT contract it through blood transfusions.

Likewise, the vast majority of those who have had blood transfusions DID NOT contract toxoplasmosis. It is therefore extremely unlikely Coe contracted it through blood transfusions, even more so when you realise that the only known cases of blood doping at the time involved autologous transfusions; talking one's own blood and reinfusing it. So Coe could only have caught it from himself!?

For the umpteenth time you have showed how you are clutching at straws and provide no factual evidence that backs up any of your rumour mongering.

I always wonder what kind of poster starts a thread, and then doesn't come back to actively participate in his own discussion. Trying to understand the original question, is there a "letsrun" consensus on what level "El G levels of EPO" is? In the 2014 Letsrun doping survey, only 57% thought El G was "Dirty". The remaining 43% of "letsrun" thinks Aouita actually took "El G levels of EPO", that is zero = zero, rendering the question rather absurd to a significant percentage of a knowledgable running population. EL G fun fact: Did you know of the top-101 all time performances (sub 3:30) that El Guerrouj achieved a prolific 33 of them, and in the mile, he similarly achieved 8 out of the top 20? He was not "swamped by dozens of others". Regarding "swamped by dozens", only 6 (or half-dozen) Moroccans ever ran faster than Aouita's 12:58.

calculo wrote:

coe in his wildest dreams woud never have broke 13'20 in '78

in '80 it woud not be better

coe had such laughable 3k, it's beyond pathetic, utter total rubbish 3k, so claiming any serious 5k is utter nonsense

to claim he was any interest to anyone ever over 5k is utter total nonsense !

No, I offer empirical evidence. You offer a far fetched 'opinion' when you state Rono was capable of 12:40 for 5000m or that toxoplasmosis proves blood transfusion.

There is evidence Coe was capable of at least 13:20 in peak form between 78 and 86.

1. The established 5k runners and athletes with established 13:20 ability that he beat over similar distances on the road.

E.g.- In 78, after a season of predominantly 800m races, he ran 4 Miles on the roads in 17:54, not only beating Coghlan (13:26 that year) , and McLeod (13:25 that year , but also breaking Foster's (13:21 in 77) course record (set in 77) by 11 secs.

-In 1980 he ran 7.5km in 20:59, beating Cova.

2. Top coaches who observed him training.

E.g. a) Frank Horwill's (National UK middle distance coach in late 70's) quote:

"He regularly did 5000m training sessions."

"But where did Coe get his amazing endurance from? The answer came to me in 1986 when I went to Battersea Park Track one Saturday morning with a 13:11 5km performer to do a session of 7 x 800m at 5km speed with 45 secs rest. The rep times were fixed at 2:08 because the 5km runner was returning to fitness after injury. Coe was on the track and came across and asked what we were doing and could he join in? I felt a little apprehensive that an acknowledged 800m/1,500m runner would not survive a 5km pace session with a short recovery. The 800ms went like this: 2:08, 2:06, 2:04, 2:02, 2:00, 1:58 and 1:56! Coe led them all. Afterwards, he confessed that he did a 5km pace session at 13:20 speed each week. I ventured the opinion that he could run a good 5km anytime. He agreed, but said he didn't like the event! It is doubtful whether any 800m runner before or since could have completed such a session in such times."

b) And Renato Canova is on record as saying what he did in terms of distance work.

"I remember Sebastian Coe, Always in Tirrenia, running in one day 30 km in about 1:40 (at 3'20" per km average, I followed him by car), and the next day doing an unbelievable session of circuit training in the gym."

Anyone who can run 30km in 1:40 and who has 46 sec 400m speed, is certainly capable of 13:20 over 5000m

Mods! Can you please do something about Calculo's obscenities on this thread. I have seen at least 5 'F bombs' used by him in the past 24 hours. Some have been deleted, but others remain.

Calling another poster a 'F'ing idiot' is not acceptable.

Maybe you have too much time on your hands.

Oh, so only 6 Moroccans ran faster than the guy who was hailed as the athlete of the century and greatest 5K runner ever. Six Moroccans from that tiny country all in the space of about 5 EPO years running faster than him and not just once but several times a year? And since then you can't find a Moroccan to barely break 13:15??? Only a complete and utter cretin could think that not suspicious.

Similarly with this supposed 'LetsRun doping survey'. Most people here are freaking dumb, like any other online forum not related to nuclear physics or such. This forum doesn't even require registration to comment, something that went out of fashion in the 1990s. Most of the people who comment here are just hobby joggers who probably don't even know who El G is.

Regarding El G, this was a rather succinct answer given (by 'ISBN') on another thread :

Yet you sought to discuss this with an audience you thought were mostly "freaking dumb". I gather by your comments, you agree that "El G levels of EPO" can mean many things to this letsrun audience. When you say "dozens", the real number was 6. When you say 5 EPO years, it was really over the course of 11 years. When you say "can't find a Moroccan to barely break" 13:15, we can really find Iguider broke 13:15, running a 12:59 in 2015, and after Hicham Bellani ran 12:55 in July 2006, 11 more Moroccans have run sub-13:15. Aouita was hailed as "athlete of the century" and "greatest 5K runner ever"? Maybe before Geb. Before the end of the century, Geb, Kiptanui, and Komen set new 5000m world records.

Craig McLachlan wrote:

Maybe you have too much time on your hands.

Oh, so only 6 Moroccans ran faster than the guy who was hailed as the athlete of the century and greatest 5K runner ever. Six Moroccans from that tiny country all in the space of about 5 EPO years running faster than him and not just once but several times a year? And since then you can't find a Moroccan to barely break 13:15??? Only a complete and utter cretin could think that not suspicious.

Similarly with this supposed 'LetsRun doping survey'. Most people here are freaking dumb, like any other online forum not related to nuclear physics or such. This forum doesn't even require registration to comment, something that went out of fashion in the 1990s. Most of the people who comment here are just hobby joggers who probably don't even know who El G is.