Sub 33 10k training

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the whey wrote:

First 3 weeks after 6 week build up to 70 mpw

Sun - 6-8 recovery miles based on feel + light gym session

Mon - 2-3 warm up, 10 x 1k CV (3:30 pace) w/1:30 rest + strides, 2-3 down

Tues - 8-10 miles easy + slightly more strenuous gym session

Wednesday - 2-3 up, 6 mile tempo @5:45-6:00 + 4x200, 2-3 down

Thursday - 8-10 miles easy + gym session

Friday - 8-10 miles easy + easy hill sprints (ex. 10-15 sec x 8 w/ 1:30 rest)

Saturday - 12-14 mile long run at a moderate intensity

This looks a little hard. I would make sure to do the long run easy NOT at a "moderate intensity" since that would just get you tired for the more important workouts. I suggest building up to 10k worth of quality - start with like a 3 mile temp or 5k of CV and then build to ~10k worth of work. Fwiw, when I ran sub 33 I never did more than 8k worth of work in a session. Also, I would suggest doing a light fartlek in place of either CV or tempo once a week since it will work a variety of paces.

As someone who ran 10km road races in hs (32:05), I can respect the ambition.

I'll say this though: you've got to be careful with the periodization and over-racing/over reaching. I only say this because I made the mistake in hs of burning it too hot too early (i.e. running hard intervals/Vo2max workouts in the winter to pop a 8:46 3km indoors and a 32:05 10km on the roads a month later...but then regressing in fitness during spring track season trying to race championship 3km meets when it counted).

That being said the 10km training can give you great aerobic strength for track/xc. I think some of the workouts (i.e. 10 x 1km are a bit ambitious for your mileage range. Start off with 8 x 1km). Besides that, that plan does look pretty solid. You want to focus on building your mileage up so you don't get hurt though. Take that stress into account (that is a big mileage jump). I'm all for hs runners doing high mileage though. The longer Uptempos/Tempos, as long as they aren't too hard, are all good for aerobic base as are the alactic Hill Sprints (don't go anaerobic though!) maybe lengthen to full recovery on those.

The "strenuous gym session" on Wed. might also become an issue between the quality Tues-Thurs workouts. Finally, I'm not sure what you mean by "building an anaerobic profile." I think what you should focus on is building your aerobic profile. Raw speed (hill sprints) is still a nice component...but "anaerobic capacity/speed/power" will easily be induced by harder Vo2max interval workouts, racing 5km and below and "icing on the cake 400m/800m" hard repeats before a peak during track/xc championship time.

10km won't require that much anaerobic power at this level. It's all about strength/stamina/Lactate Threshold and aerobic power mainly. You can do most of that with moderate intensity, aerobic base building training/high mileage.

Basic Kenyan schedule:

Sun off

Mon double

Tues 10 x 1k

Wen double

Thurs fartlek

Fri double

Sat long run

Really appreciate this Sage! I'll make sure to start off doing 8 x 1km instead of 10 x 1k as to take in account the jump in volume. I didn't realize I had put my harder gym session on Tuesday so I'll try to switch it around and see how this plays out (because nothing is worse than feeling sore and uncoordinated during a hard workout). What I meant by anaerobic profile - excuse my nomenclature - is that I would be getting my legs used to running at faster paces during track, such as in the 1600, which will enable an easier progression into higher mileage and 10k training. I do plan on taking some time to increase the miles as it is a pretty large jump, but I have never been injured previously and I usually handle mileage very well. I won't be doing anything other than a long run, tempo, and some strides during my 6-8 week build up to 70 mpw.

P.S. I subbed and love your videos! They are very informative!

.... to pray that "Coach" JS doesn't ruin this thread. Please continue. Enjoying the reading.

Just to update this thread, it has been about 2 months since I started doing 50-55 mile weeks (states was Nov 11th) and mandatory track practice starts tomorrow. My first meet is January 27th and all I have done so far is just LT runs and economy workouts. I'm looking to hopefully run around 4:40 for the 1600 or sub-10 for the 3200 depending on what my coach puts me in, and I won't really have the benefit of planning out my workouts so it's going to change obviously according to what coach wants us to do. I should be having practice 5x a week, minus Saturday and Sunday, so I will change my plan accordingly and have my long run on Sunday.

A couple of points.

1. I like the idea of running a 10k to see where you are at, not going "all in" to start your season. In the past, I've encouraged kids to run a 10k on the weekend leading up to the first day of organized practice (2nd monday in February, here in CA.). I had a kid run either high 33 or low 34 one year, 3 weeks later, he opened his track season with a 9:42 3200. Which leads me to point #2.....

2. 33 flat for 10k is pretty far out of line with your other PRs. Maybe my guy didn't do enough long tempo to be ready to roll for 10k, but he was pretty good and took his pre season race pretty seriously. He topped out at 80 mpw prior to the season and did a fair amount of 20-25 min threshold efforts.

3. Your training looks solid, but pretty aggressive for someone with your experience levels. I agree with some of the other posters about modifying downward some of your training goals (8 x 1k instead of 10, easy on the LR, etc...). It looks like you have 3 pretty taxing days scheduled. During the pre season, I really like only 1-2 taxing days.

I apologize as I think I might've been a little bit vague with what I said... I am starting practice tomorrow for track and will complete the entire season hopefully averaging 40-50 mpw, and then after track is over I will be doing 70 mile weeks to prepare for cross country and a sub-33 10k. I appreciate the feedback you and other posters have given and I modified the current plan I have to compensate for a lack of fitness, but also keep in mind this is a solid 5 months out from where I'm at right now which is about a 16:30, so I have all of track and then 3 months of 65-70+ mpw of running to achieve this goal.

No, I understood what you were saying. I'm saying 33 is still a stiff time and going all in to chase it before your real season begins is a bad idea.

I used my guy as an example of 33 minutes being harder than you think. You say you think you'll be at 10:00 by the end of track season. That's a solid time. The guy I'm talking about, as a junior had run 16:32 on the CA state meet course, then 9:37 on the track. He followed that up with a 16:02 on the state meet course and an even better 16:07 on our very difficult section meet course (runs about 30 seconds slower than state meet course) as a senior. Then during the winter, went "all in" to try and hit an Arcadia qualifying mark during the early season. As part of that going all in, he ran a 10k to test his fitness. That's where he ran the 33 high or 34 low. Granted, he didn't do 10k specific training, but he was damn close to 9:42 shape (his season opener).

Coincidentally, going "all in" early in the season didn't work out for him. He ran under 10 min every time he raced 3200 that season, but never cracked 9:42. He ran that exact time at our section meet in May just like he did in early march.

You write well for a 15 year old. I think you are likely the athlete's coach or parent and have devised up your plan for this kid. Just let the kid train. Run the race but don't put a lot of importance on it.

I acknowledge that there's the risk of going dull after a prolonged period of intense repeats to peak but I assure you that it isn't my plan. Although I said "all in" I didn't mean with my training, I meant that I would race as hard and strategic as I could to achieve my goal. I trust that my coach will take care of the speed work and sharpening up but I think that the difference that V02 max sessions and race specific repeats is highly marginal when compared to the gains I could make with simply increasing my mileage 50%.

I appreciate your concern but I can assure you I'm a genuine HS runner trying to make it big and get some fast times. Neither of my parents are runners or very involved by any means, although my father ran 15:49 off minimal training. Hopefully I can achieve that kind of time next season after I put this training in place.

I'm failing to understand why you really care about running 33 before your xc season. To test your fitness? IMO not worth it. There are plenty of unimportant races or time trials to do that in season. My advice to you is to dumb things down a bit and just run. Run more and train smart, but don't try to quantify everything though or treat training like a formula for the result you want. You're already fast for your age, so just doing whatever you can to improve each day (whether it's a hard workout, a long run, fixing your diet, getting more sleep, or taking the training easier) and letting the result be what it will be is enough. I think the most important aspect for your long term aspirations (think collegiately or post-collegiately, not the end of next summer) is to learn an attitude where you can accept the result you get, learn something and keep going with minimal emotional/mental stress. I'm not saying you're guilty of not having that, but for many ambitious, talented runners it takes work to develop that attitude, and much of your language suggests the belief that doing X means you deserve Y. At the end of the day you have limited control over the result and so all you can do is train and race your best. I think you should focus less on goals and more on enjoying running at your current ability level. Joy in the moment and good memories are the most valuable thing you will get out of running.

Another thing that gives me pause is when you say you are in 16:30 shape. Does that mean you recently ran a 16:30 or a converted 3mi or something else? Don't make the mistake of overestimating your current ability. The most efficient way to get where you want to be is to train at exactly the right paces, if you have the patience.

I would like to see more than 6 weeks of base training post track season. Most people are focused on xc mid June to mid November. Can you really support all the work you need to do to be in great shape and nicely peaked in Nov. (5months later) off of six weeks in June? I would extend the base as long as you have time for, fitting in 10 or 12 weeks at minimum. The way you have described your plan it would appear that you are running race specific workouts starting sometime in July (1 month before goal 10k). I just don't think it's a good idea to do that much of that kind of work so early in xc training. I can see you doing really well early in the season and then stagnating later, getting fatigued, and being surpassed by runners you were beating (always discouraging).

The sub-33 10k doesn't really have any magnitude other than that I believe it is a time that, if achieved, is about the point where a runner really begins to be considered fast. By 6 weeks of building, I meant up to the 70 mpw margin and then I plan on carrying it out until the 10k. Is doing the plan I have really going to burn me out if it isn't at a pace faster than 5:15 at max?

just dropping in.... wrote:

.... to pray that "Coach" JS doesn't ruin this thread. Please continue. Enjoying the reading.

I heard that if you say his name 3x in front of the mirror he shows up, gives you crappy training advice, says you could run a 28min 10k with DANCAN, and brags about having trained some athlete who did well at some marathon lately.

Wanted to update this thread as of recent,,

I did a 20 min tempo today with my team and I felt about how I usually do during a tempo effort. The effort was put in and the times came. Average pace was 5:28/mile.

the whey wrote:

Wanted to update this thread as of recent,,

I did a 20 min tempo today with my team and I felt about how I usually do during a tempo effort. The effort was put in and the times came. Average pace was 5:28/mile.

A couple things. 10k is long. 33 flat is nothing for collegiate XC runners but for a 4:40 highscholler it's pretty ambitious.

I had hs prs of 4:2x, 9:3x, and 15:30 5k XC when I ran 32:5x on a rolling 10k course first race freshman year.

Many of my freshman teammates had better high school prs but failed to break 33 in their first race with good conditions and a relatively fast field.

I raced road 5 milers/10ks in high school but it was always as a glorified tempo run. Concentrating on breaking 2 (or faster) for the 800 will do a lot more for 1 mile / 2 mile performances than sustaining 5:15 pace for half hour plus.

Yeah you're completely correct. My goals are not in track. I completely agree that breaking 2:00 for 800 will have a much better correlation to track times and distances than breaking 33 for a 10k, and most likely college coaches won't pick up on it anyways. The idea is if I can break 33 by next year it should be very easy for me to break 30 during college and going forward. I've already determined the 5k and 10k is where I excel compared to my peers with similar speed. Thank you and I will keep the short interval work and intensity up as I progress through track.

Just to update this thread; I will be competing this weekend (the 27th) at a meet. There is no 3200 event, and all distance runners will be competing in the 1600. It will be on an asphalt track, so I will be wearing my regular trainers. I hope to run around 4:45-4:55 just to get a good mark to start the season off. I will most likely be competing in the 4x800 also, and potentially the 4x400. For both these times I would hope to get ~2:10 and 60 or faster depending on our placement when I receive the baton.

the whey wrote:

Just to update this thread; I will be competing this weekend (the 27th) at a meet. There is no 3200 event, and all distance runners will be competing in the 1600. It will be on an asphalt track, so I will be wearing my regular trainers. I hope to run around 4:45-4:55 just to get a good mark to start the season off. I will most likely be competing in the 4x800 also, and potentially the 4x400. For both these times I would hope to get ~2:10 and 60 or faster depending on our placement when I receive the baton.

You should focus more on racing and less on time-trialing.