Was the Balboa Park Foot Locker course different in the 1980s?

FL has always been the same course and location, other than the Florida course.

However, FL was always 32 runners, until the changed it to 40, which has increased the bottlenecks.

The course has way too many turns and is hard to follow, so runners tend to stay with the group to make sure.

I'd like to see them get a much better course with more room, and not so many weird turns.

As far as I know ... wrote:

FL has always been the same course and location, other than the Florida course.

However, FL was always 32 runners, until the changed it to 40, which has increased the bottlenecks.

The course has way too many turns and is hard to follow, so runners tend to stay with the group to make sure.

I'd like to see them get a much better course with more room, and not so many weird turns.

This is great, now the Cali FL apologists are saying the course is too crowded?? That is so funny.

Looking at old Kinney XC videos on youtube, the course seems a lot "cleaner" compared to past years. The terrain doesn't seem as uneven and dry as it was with recent years. There is even low cut grass on a lot of spots throughout the course back then that now seem to be just rocks, dirt, and sand. There also isn't giant dust clouds blowing in front of the runners in 1985 compared to 2017 lol. Better footing is more optimal for faster times, but deeper competition is a big factor as well.

1985

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NhpDLTuSpcU

2017

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-8HWxDle2A&feature=youtu.be

Kids like to run tactical races these days. Either that or they're just really slow.

Could this be a sad reflection of climate change? Very little grass this year compared to the vintage video footage.

Also curious if they remeasure the course yearly and try for 5000m? Course measurement rules have changed a few years ago and if done correctly, the new course would be much longer than the the old course, so comparing times would be a bit of misrepresentation from past stars to the current lot.

I'm also guessing like most courses, there always seems to be slight alterations over the years.

Love the commentary by ML and the video work was amazing with picture in picture interviews!

Yes, more grass back then from the video, also wetter and some mud on the course. The footing was probably softer then than now with the hard packed clay. Guessing course was slower back then than now.

The thing that stood out is that they went out hard and hammered.

As far as I know ... wrote:

FL has always been the same course and location, other than the Florida course.

However, FL was always 32 runners, until the changed it to 40, which has increased the bottlenecks.

The course has way too many turns and is hard to follow, so runners tend to stay with the group to make sure.

I'd like to see them get a much better course with more room, and not so many weird turns.

Crowds shouldn't make a difference for the runner up front.

Course was still way faster in mid 80s than in 90s. And all those races had 32 runners.

I think more grass making it faster seems like an explanation. I thought grass might slow it down but grass might be better than bald dirt for traction.

wejo wrote:

I think more grass making it faster seems like an explanation. I thought grass might slow it down but grass might be better than bald dirt for traction.

Short grass makes it faster, especially faster than loose dirt and sand.

Peter Snell ran his world records on grass tracks. Sandy tracks, like my high school track was, are hard to run fast on.

turtle neck... wrote:

This is great, now the Cali FL apologists are saying the course is too crowded?? That is so funny.

What's even funnier is how dumb you are.

I assume you mean the "races" were faster in the 80s, not the "course". 1985 was my senior year though I didn't make it out of the western regional. That '85 class was absolutely loaded and I'm genuinely not surprised that it's the best overall in terms of Kinney/Footlocker times. Sheesh, John Trautmann was only 15th and we should all know how good he was (and still is). Reuben Reina, the Mastalir brothers, Trautmann, Marc Davis, etc., these are all-time greats in high school and/or beyond. Another one: Bill Crowley was only 13th but a sub-4 miler in college and I believe he is still high on the all-time high school list for Van Cortlandt. Eric Mastalir ran 8:44 in the 3200 and 14:01 in the 5000 during track season that same year and was only 9th in this race. By the way, I was invited to run in the big Arcadia 3200 that year (there was only 1 invitational race, not all the heats they have now) and I was shocked when I flew there and found out that Arcadia had a gravel track in those days! Mark and Eric won with somewhere around 8:50 on the gravel. The days when men were men! (joking) This is all to say that, unlike today, EVERYBODY who is good ran Kinney, they were gunning for time in a massively competitive race, and 1985 happened to be an incredible field.

wejo wrote:

As far as I know ... wrote:

FL has always been the same course and location, other than the Florida course.

However, FL was always 32 runners, until the changed it to 40, which has increased the bottlenecks.

The course has way too many turns and is hard to follow, so runners tend to stay with the group to make sure.

I'd like to see them get a much better course with more room, and not so many weird turns.

Crowds shouldn't make a difference for the runner up front.

Course was still way faster in mid 80s than in 90s. And all those races had 32 runners.

I think more grass making it faster seems like an explanation. I thought grass might slow it down but grass might be better than bald dirt for traction.

It is absolutely the surface of the course that has changed. I was there in the 80’s. I was there on Saturday. My guess is that in the interval the many droughts in California has meant less irrigation of the park. There have been mandatory water restrictions off and on for years including for municipalities. The route is exactly the same but many stretches are now soft dirt or sandy rather than firm turf. While NXN is pulling a few kids off, the FL field is still plenty deep - the kids are not getting slower, more likely the opposite when you look at track times. It is always sunny in SD, but this past Saturday felt particularly warm.

Wussy tactics weren’t prevalent then. Runners ran as fast as they could to win the race.

I just noticed , are the runners wearing spikes ??? We were not allowed spikes in 1983? Just a thought.

1985 was definitely an outlier - but look at the guys in that field. Course definitely looks drier now, but I don't think that should slow the course down that much. I think the biggest difference is the number of "big" races that high school kids run, starting in late August (with instant news). While the number of dual and tri meets is way down, the number of big invitationals seems to be much greater. Maybe by the time FL Nationals rolls around the tank is close to empty. When you had to wait for the Harrier to tell you what happened a month ago, you were still pretty amped up by the time Nationals rolled around.

While NXN is certainly diluting the field, I was surprised by the lack of depth at Nationals, especially given the much greater depth in the country overall. A big gap between 4th and 5th in the boys race.

I see cones on the current course in stretches to help keep the runners off the line. That wasn't the case in 1985. That, along with the new course measurement rules could easily add 10-15 seconds to the current course. It would be great to hear from any of the meet directors about any modifications to the course.

Either way, I was very impressed with the FL races I was able to watch last Saturday.

Course measurement is the big thing here. I believe it was in 2012 the NFHS said HS courses would be measured along the shortest possible route instead of along a center line. Not sure if Footlocker was following NFHS rules before or if they are now. But technically every course record from 2012 should be saved and then new course records for every course after that if you want to be accurate.

Balboa has a lot of turns so the difference between old rules and new rules could be significant. We've seen some courses around us add 90-110 meters.

Solinsky 2002 shows what a really good runner could do on that course many years after the '80s. If Ritz had the opportunity to run there in '99 and '00, I'm certain that he too would have put up very fast times. And, as a result, the '80s times woiuldn't look like such outliers.

Not to say that footing couldn't be having some effect on the course in 2017. But if a time machine could bring everyone together, a lot of those names from the '80s would finish very high.

Found this golden photo...

http://archive.dyestat.com/3us/3xc/FL/final/donna-raceday/barrengerandparents.jpg

about 800 meters of the beginning of the race is now basically loose dirt or bark. In the 85 video it was grass....right around 1000 meters, the kids pass by the warm up tent which is now ALL bark. In 85 it was grass. There is a huge difference.

All in all, I am shocked FLN is still there. The course is dated and the wear shows. On the uphill, there is a metal pipe sticking up out of the ground ON the course.

I think it will be very hard for kids to come close to the times run in the 80's and 90's