DougC wrote:
First, who says taking Testosterone (even if prescribed by a doctor) if following rules?
Using a TUE is literally following the rules.
DougC wrote:
First, who says taking Testosterone (even if prescribed by a doctor) if following rules?
Using a TUE is literally following the rules.
eurodonkey wrote:
dad bod wrote:
If an MD diagnoses you with a condition, how can you call it doping?
First of all, hats off to Kevin Castille for an incredible performance. In the absence of any evidence at all that he is on anything (even a TUE), let's celebrate a further advance in what our species is capable of.
But if your condition is what anyone else on the planet outside the USA calls "aging", and the MD you see is an "anti-aging specialist", who says they can diagnose you with "low testosterone levels" by some standard of theirs and prescribe you testosterone and speed you up again, you're cheating. I think most serious masters athletes know this, but there are probably a few "middle aged men in lycra" taking advantage of it.
Two other general points of information:
1. Masters very rarely get tested. Testing is expensive, people MIGHT be tested at races, but I have never heard of any NADO doing out-of-competition tests and certainly not of anyone being on bio passport programmes.
2. TUEs are submitted for approval. Has any master even submitted one for testosterone, and has one ever been granted by the national body? I sincerely hope they would look hard at these and turn them down unless it was a serious medical issue.
This post is SPOT ON.
dad bod wrote:
DougC wrote:
First, who says taking Testosterone (even if prescribed by a doctor) if following rules?
Using a TUE is literally following the rules.
Some would say it's *abusing* the rules by finding a doctor who will diagnose a "condition" that is considered normal aging by the rest of the world. Sometimes in life you can follow the letter of the law, but still be an unethical asshat.
Additionally, I highly doubt any Masters road racer actually submitted a TUE. They are getting exogenous testosterone and that's breaking the "rules".
Last post: Just because you can find a doctor to write a prescription, doesn't mean that you are within the USADA rules. You'd still need to apply for a TUE and as another poster mentioned, it's highly unlikely that Masters road racers are going through that arduous process.
DougC wrote:
dad bod wrote:
Using a TUE is literally following the rules.
Some would say it's *abusing* the rules by finding a doctor who will diagnose a "condition" that is considered normal aging by the rest of the world. Sometimes in life you can follow the letter of the law, but still be an unethical asshat.
See but now you're imposing your own moral views onto legal/illegal definitions that are cut and dry. Personally, I think using caffeine in a race is cheating, but it would be pretty stupid of me to go around calling out caffeine users as dopers.
Repeating myself here, but your ire should be aimed at the system if such things are being allowed.
My ire is still aimed at those runners who get a doctor to diagnose "getting older" as a disease so they can run faster. That's unethical. There are lots of things in life that aren't explicitly illegal, but certainly are unethical.
By the way, these Masters runners are NOT getting a TUE, so even by your definition, they are cheating.
But most of us who get old would love to find ways to slow or reverse the effects of "normal aging," not just how normal aging affects running, but all sorts of other physical things as well. I wouldn't even know where to begin to get testosterone therapy and can't imagine that I would ever do it. But if some guy does it so he can mow the lawn, walk the stairs normally, chase around the grand kids, etc., and in the process can run more and faster than he once did I hesitate to call him a cheater. On the other hand, I also get why people who are not getting that sort of treatment and are coming up just short of beating someone like that in races would feel cheated. I suppose my only point here is that taking something that improves your performance at older ages might be different than doing it at younger ages.
DougC wrote:
eurodonkey wrote:
First of all, hats off to Kevin Castille for an incredible performance. In the absence of any evidence at all that he is on anything (even a TUE), let's celebrate a further advance in what our species is capable of.
But if your condition is what anyone else on the planet outside the USA calls "aging", and the MD you see is an "anti-aging specialist", who says they can diagnose you with "low testosterone levels" by some standard of theirs and prescribe you testosterone and speed you up again, you're cheating. I think most serious masters athletes know this, but there are probably a few "middle aged men in lycra" taking advantage of it.
Two other general points of information:
1. Masters very rarely get tested. Testing is expensive, people MIGHT be tested at races, but I have never heard of any NADO doing out-of-competition tests and certainly not of anyone being on bio passport programmes.
2. TUEs are submitted for approval. Has any master even submitted one for testosterone, and has one ever been granted by the national body? I sincerely hope they would look hard at these and turn them down unless it was a serious medical issue.
This post is SPOT ON.
As a 40-something life-long runner, I am about to go through this situation. I was recently diagnosed with low T (I was tested for a non-running related issue). I've been wrestling with how I feel about getting treated and continuing to enter races. I have usually been a local top 3 age group guy or, when in good shape, a top 3 master runner. When focusing on the marathon, I'm a sub 3 hour guy. When racing, I tend to focus more on time and PRs and don't get too tied up in place.
From what I have read, T levels should not drop much in your 40s, so I don't feel this is just an "aging" problem I am trying to avoid.
Testosterone starts to drop at age 30. Doctors have callled the natural aging process a "condition".
"After age 30, most men begin to experience a gradual decline in testosterone."
DougC wrote:
Testosterone starts to drop at age 30. Doctors have callled the natural aging process a "condition".
"After age 30, most men begin to experience a gradual decline in testosterone."
Obviously DougC is an expert in the field and no medical professional can present a dissenting opinion. He is determined to stand his moral high ground, everyone else be damned.
DougC wrote:
Testosterone starts to drop at age 30. Doctors have callled the natural aging process a "condition".
"After age 30, most men begin to experience a gradual decline in testosterone."
If you have low T in your 30s you probably have some condition, other than aging, causing it.
dad bod wrote:
DougC wrote:
Testosterone starts to drop at age 30. Doctors have callled the natural aging process a "condition".
"After age 30, most men begin to experience a gradual decline in testosterone."
Obviously DougC is an expert in the field and no medical professional can present a dissenting opinion. He is determined to stand his moral high ground, everyone else be damned.
That's just my opinion from talking to various doctors... It's not an uncommon belief in the medical field that the whole "Low T" diagnosis is simply trying to delay the normal aging process. It's a message board and that's just my opinion. No need to take offense when debating the topic. Also, these guys filling the Low T Center parking lots are not getting a TUE, therefore they are in violation of doping rules.
I feel the same way about NOP athletes all getting diagnosed with hypothyroidism...
I’m no Kevin... but what’s he’s doing seems possible.
It’s amazing and certainly crazy fast.
I have no pedigree like him, but am doing fine at 41 years old ....I haven’t had my T checked but can run still run below 2:30 in a marathon....feel the same as I did at 30.
I still feel my limiters are “me” nothing else.
Pretty sure Kevin has a ton more talent than me so I don’t see why he/someone can run that fast.
dad bod wrote:
DougC wrote:
Testosterone starts to drop at age 30. Doctors have callled the natural aging process a "condition".
"After age 30, most men begin to experience a gradual decline in testosterone."
Obviously DougC is an expert in the field and no medical professional can present a dissenting opinion. He is determined to stand his moral high ground, everyone else be damned.
DougC thinks he's out of sight...maybe he's contemplating TRT. Lol.
DougC wrote:
My ire is still aimed at those runners who get a doctor to diagnose "getting older" as a disease so they can run faster. That's unethical. There are lots of things in life that aren't explicitly illegal, but certainly are unethical.
By the way, these Masters runners are NOT getting a TUE, so even by your definition, they are cheating.
So what? If they have a prescription for their Androgel or whatever, why would other older runners lose sleep over something so stupid. I'm an old fart in my late 50s and run with and race against some guys on the Rx gel, and I could care less. The whiners could see a doctor, get a diagnosis and get their own Rx, if they so desire. Lower T levels exist with just about everyone when you get up there in age....nothing new there.
You can't get a TUE for low testosterone due to aging.
Eatly 40’s and sub 16. Seeing how light Castille is and how consistently he’s performed from late 30’s to now, I’m not surprised he’s running this fast. Good for him.
dad bod wrote:
Is it easy/legal for aging athletes to get testosterone therapy? Would you be able to submit a TUE if it were legitimately prescribed?
It is very, very easy.
Attend doctor's office. Describe being over 50. Ask for prescription.
aokjf;oaskjf;sldkfj wrote:
You can't get a TUE for low testosterone due to aging.
Yes...you can if you're an old fart with a diagnosis for Low testosterone levels and the treatment calls for T therapy.
USADA also has a new Recreational Competitor TUE (RCTUE) which makes it easier to get a TUE for T & steroids:
This ?
http://roidvisor.com/usada-permits-recreational-athletes-use-anabolic-steroids-long-promise-lose-races/I am almost sure haile could obliterate this record without even training for it
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