Road Racing and Training-week ending 11/12

I could list reasons for hours on end.

But I feel like the real question is more, why try hard at something when you'll never be that good at it? If you push it down that road then 95% of the population would have zero hobbies, even non-competitive ones. People write, draw, paint, make sheds, cook and boy, they suck. After putting in years of effort.

The only differences I see with running are the physical demands but that shouldn't mean it's harder to get motivated. It being competitive makes it easier to place yourself within the hierarchy of your peers but I don't think that changes much.

Personally I do it because it's cheaper than therapy, I'm unhealthily competitive, the social side of it is brilliant over here and I don't think I'll ever have the chance to be top 100 in the country at anything else this popular (top 100 marathon in the UK is almost always around 2:29, which one day I'd like to think I can do). It's also incredibly cheap and keeps me thin.

Most of all, people want to succeed. And be 'better'. Getting better than you used to be at anything requires effort. Running happens to be something where it's easier to say if you are or aren't.

Thank you everyone for the encouragement. In all honesty if not for you and this thread I may have said F-it when my ankle started hurting. It is almost 100% now. My knees still hurt which may never go away. Going to be Turkey Trotting soon and may run in the Footlocker MW region XC open race coming up. I ran a 10k back in HS instead of it. Back then it was Kinney Nationals and wasn't as big as it is now.

Bdubs- Great week. Those workouts look good.

Smoove- Great week also. Seems like you can really lock in a pace.

Ontario Runner- I like the week. I'll try not to cry about my weather. Cab ride? lol I'd do the same. Nevermind I'd not get that far.

RRR looks like the taper paid off. Once again Great Race and Congrats on PR and win.

Runn3rgirl- Wow! Tuesday looked tough. 16:47 for 3.08 is awesome.

Laughlin- Nice week. How did Pier Park go? Good luck at Fernhill.

outsiderunner-Nice taper and great marathon. Congrats on PR

Coach Jeff ROC-Awesome week. What race? I thought you were trying a 5k.

statfanatic- Not a bad week. Hope you feel better.

misser of jamin-I like it. Nice 800's dropped time on everyone.

dgla-That is very impressive. Mileage and reps are definitely there.

hantph96- Wow good week. W looked sweet

ThePsychiatrist-Great week. I used to do my intervals based on telephone poles. Good luck getting to sub-15

too hot- What exactly did Smoove do? I missed your week.

Martalus- Hope you get back to 100% soon. Be careful with ellipticals I think they actually cause knee issues with me before.

Runningforfun- Great week. Tempo and 2 Progressions. Good luck in the race.

carterschade-Welcome. HS XC is fun. Keep up the work in the off seasons. Miles build Champions!

HHH Runner- Hope you feel better. Sounds like a rough week.

All right, friends, here is my last week. I'm preparing for a Turkey Trot 5 miler, which I've kinda grafted onto my "season" after racing a half marathon last month in a PR of 1:18:10. I really am enjoying focusing on a shorter race, but I haven't really focused on anything shorter than a half or full marathon since, well, high school and college (which is 12-16 years ago)

Mon: 8 miles, easy

Tues: 2.5-mile w/u; 20-min Tempo, hilly, pushed probably too hard (~5:45-5:50/mile? just a guess). 2.5-mile cooldown

Wed: 8 miles easy

Thurs: 8 miles easy

Friday: 8 miles easy

Sat: 2.5-m w/u; then a solo 5-K Time Trial on a track, hoping to shock my system into being ready for Thanksgiving. Ran 17:12, which I'm happy with, though I was kinda hoping I might go under 17. Went out too fast and definitely felt like my body isn't used to racing distances shorter than a half, which could be trouble for Thanksgiving. Anyway, splits of 5:26, 5:31, 5:36, then closed with 37 seconds for last 200. 40 min jogging cooldown

Sun: 10 miles, easy, though legs weren't feeling great after yesterday

Full week: 60 miles, couple good hard efforts

My goal for the Turkey Trot remains to break 28:00. My old PR from high school is 27:59 (set on this course). After my half marathon, I thought, who knows, maybe I can go 27:30. But after Saturday's time trial, I'm thinking maybe I'm not quite there for 27:30. Probably should start off first couple miles around 28:00 min pace and see if I can negative split. (easier said than done, since I tend to get overly excited on race morning...)

pewow wrote:

Smoove - Another consistent week. Curious why you're doing the faster work later. I would think that half marathon would be like your marathon training where you do the fast work early and transition to more race specific work later.

I am doing it for a few reasons, a couple of which are based on feel, the third of which is based a little more on science.

First, the science one - I may role this training cycle into a Boston showing. I haven't quite decided on that yet for sure, but if I do decide to do Boston, I am going to need to break up all of this threshold work some, and I like to have that vo2max block early, so that vo2max stuff at the end of this cycle will start as the jumping off point for Boston with a down week or two in between the end of the Houston cycle and starting in earnest for Boston.

Also, the half is sort of a tricky animal. LT adaptation is the most important element to focus on, but you can actually find yourself drawn out to a faster pace on race day, so I want to have some ability to deal with crisp paces some.

I have been doing my pre-threshold block vo2max block over the last 4-6 weeks (although less than I would have liked), so that "fast first, then race oriented" approach is still there, but I am kind of shifting to something akin to what I do with my 5k training - fast early, race pace in the middle, then fast and race modeling at the end to make race day pace feel manageable and to "sharpen" (which is sort of a nonsensical, nebulous term, but it has some meaning to me that I cannot articulate in a better way).

So it is kind of a blending of art and science this time around. Lots of way to get after the half, this is just one that I think should work for me.

Smoove wrote:

You can go twenty minutes at "threshold pace" - which is what Daniels describes as 60 minute race pace. Or you can go longer at a slightly slower pace, in which case the lactic acid builds up more slowly, but has more time to accumulate. Both have the same effect - getting your body to adapt to the presence of, and to clear at pace, lactic acid.

Really interesting dissection of this topic. Quick question:

I've always been a little puzzled by the "20 mins at T-pace" workout. It always seems too short for me, especially when compared with how challenging some of Daniels' I-paced or M-paced workouts can be. And yet, it sometimes seems like he's saying that "20-mins @ T" workout is all you need to keep improving your LT.

How do YOU decide whether that's enough or whether you should be doing more volume at your T-pace, even if that means you are going slightly slower than if you'd been only doing it for 20 minutes? Because if you're training for a marathon (or a half marathon) and you think LT is the key physiological factor to focus on, then I'd imagine you want to spend a lot more time hammering away at that pace than just 20 minutes every week or so.

Or am I incorrect in something here?

Thanks! Really appreciate your insights

Pappy - I think I tapered to much. If could go back woulda done a 10miles w some progression on Tuesday. And 6pm Thursday. But worked out.

seriousquestion-I do it for multiple reasons. Back in the day I was very very close to world and national class. I had a lot of issues back then and very little support and ended up leaving after suspecting the amount of doping going on in the early 90's. Some of the people I was handing it to could not of possible made the progression they made naturally. I was making great progressions theirs were not natural.

Now I do it because I am beginning to enjoy it again. I have a son with all the talent in the world. His big problem is he has no role models to learn from or run with. I don't like to push him, it is his choice. If he can see me going out doing it though I feel he will be more apt to do it too. I grew up around State and National Champs, All-Americans and Olympians. Becoming good was easy for me with my role models.

Bottom line I'd say HHH Runner summed it up well. "Personally I do it because it's cheaper than therapy, I'm unhealthily competitive," I think it was a family thing. My slow brother ran 14:59 for 5k and he was not very talented but had a huge desire.

runrincerepeat wrote:

Pappy - I think I tapered to much. If could go back woulda done a 10miles w some progression on Tuesday. And 6pm Thursday. But worked out.

I'll disagree. Change it next time but the whole point of tapering is to run a fast race. You ran a fast race and were flat out rolling at the end.

Re-posting from last week's thread....

OR - great race report. My (not as good as OR's) race report:

I'll second all the info about the Richmond course. Not super fast and a bit of a boring chunk with rollers from 11-15. I live in the area and it's always fun seeing the roads on foot vs. from a car.

Achilles was an issue leading up to the race but the pain went away by 11 or 12 (it's back now!). I stuck right on 6:50 pace through 17. Just really tried to make those miles as boring as I could. The Lee Bridge and hill afterwards felt like nothing and I held back to regroup a little once we made the turn onto Main Street at around 16.5.

Then my wife handed me a bottle of de-fizzed coke at 18 and off I went. Last 10k was 3 minutes faster than first 10k. I realized I was going to have an outside chance at sub 2:55 at about mile 23, then just played every trick I've learned over the years to deal with the pain. Last few miles were 6:37 ,6:24, 6:27, 6:25, 6:18, 6:16, 6:02. Last 0.2 was 1:07 which is 5:35 pace (not sure how accurate that conversion is though). Unlike OR, I was completely spent at the end.

The Pftiz book I used (again, for the first time ever following a structured plan for a marathon) made note to expend your last drop of energy as you cross the line. I certainly did than and almost fell over into Bart Yasso, who was chilling at the finish (thanks Bart for the 800s workout).

Another shout out to the ladies on the side of the road around 24/25 with a Shalane "F!ck Yes" poster. I was telling myself that on the walk to get my medal.

I still don't know where I pulled that race from. I was in better shape last year and ran a minute slower.

Planning on doing Boston in April. Will be my 20th marathon and 10th Boston (I'm at 8 Richmonds now). I don't know if I have the commitment to post so frequently but will for sure be following these training threads more closely. I even registered my name!

You are correct, I do hammer away at LT work when focused on the marathon or half marathon. That's why if you went back and looked at my last month or so, you would see the 5k/3k/2k workout and the 3 x 2 mile workout at roughly LT pace.

So one answer may be that you can switch to cruise intervals instead of a straight 20 minute tempo run. That will let get in more overall volume at LT pace than the straight 20 minute tempo run.

Another alternative might be to stretch the tempo run out to 30-35 minutes and to slow the pace down by a about8 to 10 seconds.

Another possibility may be that you are better LT adapted the vo2max adapted, and the predicted T pace for you based off of your races may be off - you may need to go faster than that predicted pace to get the desired benefit. This is where you need to use some of the other tests for LT pace other than just pace. I like the pledge of allegiance test - I can get out each clause of the pledge (and not just word by word), but could not recite it continuously. At that point, I know the effort is just about right. You can also go by heart rate (roughly 90% of your max heart rate), but I am not a heart rate guy. You can also pay attention to your breathing rhythms - your breathing rhythm should be different than your easy distance rhythm, but not the same as your race rhythm. That one is a bit trickier for me, because I don't normally pay attention to breathing rhythms, so I cannot tell you if it is a 3:2 or whatever, but I can definitely tell the difference between the different rhythms and can use it as a rough guide to make sure I am where I am supposed to be.

One other thing to consider is that if I pace is hard for you, but T pace is easy, that might be telling you about the unique combination of skills you have as a runner (perhaps a high natural LT but a relatively lower vo2max - probably the exact opposite of me), which then leads to the age old question of whether you should train to your strengths or weaknesses.

Most say train your weaknesses (which might mean you making your vo2max workouts the emphasis of most weeks and letting the threshold runs be secondary). Of course, with these things, its a tougher question to answer, because not only are out initial strengths (vo2max/threshold) variable and determined in large part by genetics, but the trainability of those variables is also varied and genetically determined. So you can have a naturally high LT and it can be relatively trainable or not. You can have a relatively low vo2max and it can be relatively trainable or not. If your relatively low vo2max is not trainable. but your high lactate threshold is, then maybe it makes sense to train to your strengths.

So it would probably take some trial and error for you, but I would probably make vo2max intervals your primary focus for about a month or two in each training cycle, with the tempo efforts being secondary, and when I worked on threshold work, I would make some of the adjustments and use some of the subjective tests above.

I have a separate thread where I ask for advice but it looks like this thread gets a lot of action so here was my last week.

This week was solid. I got better, more consistent mileage in, with a few workouts.

Monday 6 Nov

Warmed up 1.55 very slow because it was taking my legs a minute to get rid of those random leg pains I get. Once I started the workout they went away. The first half was getting me worried because I was struggling to even keep it under 6:10, and the goal pace was 5:50. The course I run is a long gradual uphill, so that was why it was slow, but for some reason it still freaked me out and I ran too hard on the first half. 4.5 up, 4.5 down. The way back down I had to purposely hold back because it was all downhill. The workout was 9 miles in 53 minutes, 5:54 average pace, splits of 6:08-6:15-6:02-5:55-5:48-5:41-5:49-5:45-5:44. Really solid, felt super easy after the first half. 2.75 mile cool down for 13.3 total today.

Tuesday 7 Nov

Nice and slow recovery run. 10 miles at 7:13 on grass. My achilles has been hurting after I run, but not during the run. I'll have to be careful.

Wednesday 8 Nov

Postponed my long run to make sure my achilles is ok. Slow recovery, even slower than yesterday! 10 miles on the grass at 7:22. Achilles feels good.

Thursday 9 Nov

Great long run, maybe a bit too fast for this early in my buildup though. Combo of grass-asphalt-grass. My legs felt springy and fresh, but I still had a lot of small pains. Splits were 7:32-7:10-6:58-6:38-6:43-6:30-6:21-6:18-6:32-6:36-6:36-6:29-6:39-6:40-6:48 for 15 miles @6:42.

Friday 10 Nov

I drove up to Idaho today to visit my friend at college. Hilly run with some wind, 10 miles at 7:23. Legs feel awesome!

Saturday 11 Nov

Fastest tempo run yet, but I let loose a bit too much in the last 2 miles. 4 mile warmup at 7:35 pace, then 5 mile tempo on the school's new track, nice and bouncy. Split according to the watch, which were very close with the laps on the track, were 5:36-5:33-5:32-5:27-5:18, 5:29 average. All of the splits were right on when I hit the finish line each time until the last one, it clicked about 30 meters from the finish line. That one was actually like 5:23 probably. Felt great! I think I'm in great shape for my half marathon on Thanksgiving. I'm going for 73 which is 5:34s. 4 mile cool down at 7:36 pace. We played a few hours of soccer later, probably 2 miles of running. 15 mile day.

73 miles this week with some solid workouts. Does it sound like my training is leading me in the right direction? I want to have some good races this winter, but my main goal is a track 5k in april. Should I back off a little? Any advice is appreciated!

Male 41, no "A" goal but running a 5K next Thursday, thinking about 5K-marathon distances in spring

Just trying to get as many runs in as possible. The baby is now 3 weeks old and has decided to be cranky at night so it's been a real struggle just to get out. I got a couple 5 milers in and last night when everyone was asleep I did some night trail running. I was relieved to come home and the house was still quiet. I've got the green light for a 5K Turkey Trot (with baby sitter) provided everything is done the day before (we are hosting 30-40 people Thursday afternoon). A new pair of shoes for the masters winner is on the line so I'm hoping to get a good race in. If it's all the same masters as all the other races I should be in good shape but sometimes new people show up in holidays. Not that he's running against masters but Andrew Lemoncello likes to run this one so the winning time could be in the 15-flat realm. It's grass with some little hills so it will probably be 20 seconds slower than a road 5K. Breaking 17:00 is still my goal. Given my short windows for running I've been up-pace progressions on almost every run, ignoring my own advice about taking it easy on off days (and I'm not running workouts on the other days either).

M - 3 (7:19 pace)

T - 6.4 (trail)

W - off

T - 5 (7:08)

F - 5 (6:59)

S - off

S - 12 (9:45) - 30s off a PR for a tough climb but battling a vision issue and a dying headlamp so pretty sure I could take it in the light or with my eye at 100%. Not terribly worried about loss of fitness yet.

Week mileage: 32

Given the 5K in a little over a week, and the fact that I really haven't been doing much, what should I do to "cram" for this (consider I'll probably get only 4-5 runs in per week)?

Previous 4 weeks mileage: 36, 19, 13, 20

Team1- 12x400 to get some turnover?! esp since you seem like a fast twitch guy. I am also trotting on Thursday so may do some kind of little workout this week.

Super helpful, thanks. I'll go back and read through past weeks' posts to see what specifically you've been up to.

To boil one of my questions down, is it correct, then, that when you're in a phase focusing on LT development, you set a goal of completing, say, 10% of your weekly mileage hammering away at that pace?

So, for example, if you're doing a 60-mile week, you might say, "Okay, this week, I need to get in about 6 miles of T-running during my primary workout." And then you can decide whether to go cruise intervals or a longer tempo (which, of course, would probably be 8-10 seconds/mile slower than the "T" pace of a 20-min session)?

I'm just really intrigued to better understand how people who really understand this LT maximization stuff approach both the pace, the distance and the choice of cruise intervals or straight-up tempo run questions.

Thanks and sorry to ask so many follow-ups

OR and R3 - awesome performances! OR, that neg split was huge, seems like sub - 2:50 is there for you.

Bdub - good volume and nice interval session

Smoove - What do you think gives with the second workout, are you just carrying too much fatigue?

Ontario - good job getting in some solid base volume

Runn3rgrl - nice 5k! Glad to hear things are coming along well

Pappy - great job and that's some solid progress you are already making!

Coach - it's always nice when you can train on the course

DGLA - that's some serious volume. Wow

M - 4 easy

T - am 5 easy, pm 3 easy

W - 8 w/ 4x mile, 60 second rest (6:15avg for miles)

T - 5 moderate

F - am 7 easy, pm 3 easy

S - 8 w/ 4x (400R, 400 jog), 1 mile easy, 4x (400R, 400 jog) 400s averaged 77-78

S - 12 easy

Total 55 miles

Decent week overall and finally getting close to the mileage I'd like to level off at (60-70) for a bit. I've decided no Turkey Trot for me next week as I'm a long way off from the fitness I want. Plus, I got nailed with stomach flu yesterday and it's going to take a few days out of me this week I'm sure. However, I've also decided I'm all in for Eugene Marathon end of April. So plan is to maintain course with some 5k work through the end of the year before bringing the volume back up and getting back into marathon training.

I do generally try to follow that 10% rule, but I do that with respect to each workout, not with respect to total weekly mileage. When marathon training, I often do two LT workouts per week, and will do that a few times during this half marathon training cycle. As a practical matter, the %age guidelines are there to use as a baseline to make sure we aren't overdoing the stress that workouts impose on our bodies. The faster you run, the more stress on your body, as a general matter. So Daniels (among others) caps T work at 10%, I work at 8% and R work at 5%. So I view those as rough equivalents of one another. If you can do one T session at 10% and one I session at 8% and be within those guidelines, conceptually 2 T workouts at 10% would be the "body stress" equivalent (more volume, but at a slower pace), so no real difference there even though you end up at 20% of your weekly mileage at T pace.

It doesn't all revolve around LT pace or LT pace plus or minus 10 seconds. You get lactate threshold adaptations by running at steady state effort as well. Do 8-15 mile runs around marathon pace or slightly slower for best results.

Nice week! Based on what I'm seeing I think you can run low to mid 15's. Is that your goal?

Yeah, best case scenario would be to go just under 15. Do you think I am going to hard too early? Its still several months away.