Now it gets interesting, Zane Robertson's ex-girlfriend Betty Desalegn (Jama Aden athlete) is busted for Biological Passport

mindweak wrote:

here is the 10k, hmmm notice something? ronos record lasted 7 years, then 5 then boom was getting broken left and right all during the "EPO" era

27:22.4 Henry Rono (KEN) June 11, 1978 Vienna, Austria[1]

27:13.81 Fernando Mamede (POR) July 2, 1984 Stockholm, Sweden[1]

27:08.23 Arturo Barrios (MEX) August 18, 1989 Berlin, Germany[1]

27:07.91 Richard Chelimo (KEN) July 5, 1993 Stockholm, Sweden[1]

26:58.38 Yobes Ondieki (KEN) July 10, 1993 Oslo, Norway[1]

26:52.23 William Sigei (KEN) July 22, 1994 Oslo, Norway[1]

26:43.53 Haile Gebrselassie (ETH) June 5, 1995 Hengelo, Netherlands[1]

26:38.08 Salah Hissou (MAR) August 23, 1996 Brussels, Belgium[1]

26:31.32 Haile Gebrselassie (ETH) July 4, 1997 Oslo, Norway[1]

26:27.85 Paul Tergat (KEN) August 22, 1997 Brussels, Belgium[1]

26:22.75 Haile Gebrselassie (ETH) June 1, 1998 Hengelo, Netherlands[1]

26:20.31 Kenenisa Bekele (ETH) June 8, 2004 Ostrava, Czech Republic[1]

26:17.53 Kenenisa Bekele (ETH) August 26, 2005 Brussels, Belgium[1]

The fastest 10,000m since 2009 was 26:43 by Bekele followed by Rupp 26:44.

Don't forget High Octane Dopers, that is one cool cat.?

Wow, 2 bags of blood, heck even I could run a 2:05 marathon with that much reinfused.

Interestingly, in the 1970s Kydland and Prescott wrote economic papers on how governments are actually incentivized to cheat (print money, inflate) occasionally, they won the Nobel Prize in economics. As exhibited by countries with 2% inflation targets that deliver 2.2%, 2.5%, 2.7% average inflation. Under he ABP if 80-ish is normal and 120 is the red flag. Scores of 112, 109, 115 will pop up from time to time. (Sound familiar?). Same with t/e ratios of 5.8/9 in the 1990s.

You are wrong again.

23 26:43.98 Lucas Rotich KEN 16.04.90 2 Bruxelles 16.09.2011

In conclusion:

1) Your brain is full of sh*t.

big boy v.2 wrote:

You are wrong again.

23 26:43.98 Lucas Rotich KEN 16.04.90 2 Bruxelles 16.09.2011

In conclusion:

1) Your brain is full of sh*t.

? good call, I thought you were referring to that dodgy "10k" time that no one will EVER beat.

Why would you say "moorcroft very likely blood doping". This looks like you are propping up faith with more faith. All these examples are not addressing the plain observation that non-Africans, even your best Spanish examples, despite running fast, are still comparatively slow over two decades in the presence of such a powerful untestable and easy to evade drug, able to deliver 48-64 seconds to the very best over 10K. Assuming they took EPO and achieved a 3-4% benefit, they still compare more closely to their pre-EPO predecessors, than the top athletes of their own era. Either: - the very best non-Africans are not taking this powerful drug - the very best non-Africans are taking EPO, but they are low responders (not 3-4%) - the very best non-Africans, when clean, are really second rate athletes at world level, compared to clean athletes like Rono Some statistics for Mr. Obvious: Take Henry Rono's 27:22. Count all the non-Africans between 1998 and 2017 that have run faster than Henry Rono. 160 people have run faster, as fast as 26:17. 15 of them are non-African, the fastest at 26:44. Of the non-Africans, Rupp ran 26:44 in 2014. Geb ran faster 20 years earlier in 1995, eventually lowering it to 26:22 in 1998. Next best is Solinsky at 26:59 in 2010, slower than Ondieki in 1993, and only 20 seconds faster than Markus Nenow in 1986. Both of these occurred post-ABP, after two generations of EPO tests, and the ABP. What happened to all of the best non-Africans between 1986 and 2009? The conclusion is that Rupp, only in 2014, became the first non-African EPO high-responder, and that athletes like Solinsky are second-rate athletes who doped. I find this ridiculous.

What are you talking about? He gave me a list of Africans running fast, not known to take EPO. He is assuming that EPO caused the fast times to conclude EPO caused the fast times. How is a plainly obvious logical fallacy the knockout punch that is supposed to convince me? How does furnishing a list of Africans, women, and sprinters, explain the paltry, lackluster progression of non-African males in endurance events -- even the Spanish non-Africans abusing EPO for a decade? On one side, we have the best of about 5% of the population of high altitude inhabitants, running times 3-4% faster than pre-EPO era, but not known to take EPO. On the other side, we have the best of about 85% of the population, running times marginally (less than 1%) faster (not 3-4% like the first group) than pre-EPO era times, whether clean, taking EPO, or highly responding to synergistic doping cocktails. These lack of explanation for these two extremes in the same era are what is not convincing me. If EPO is the main factor of all improvements post 1987, then: - East and North Africans, all women, and male race walkers, are high responders - non African males are either all second rate, or low responders That's ridiculous.

Everyone's looking for an edge wrote:

mindweak....you're on fire! Impressive ?. If that's not the knockout punch to convince rekrunner then I don't know what will be. Part of me suggests that rekrunner is just trolling to keep this thread going, which at least is very interesting with the info posted by yourself, subway, casual observer, mr. obvious & others. Fascinating info here guys?

rekrunner wrote:

Why would you say "moorcroft very likely blood doping". This looks like you are propping up faith with more faith.

I'm guilty of associating Moorcroft with blood bags in the fridge. But by chance what was his second fastest 5,000m time?

In a very small window during the middle of 1982 he broke the 3-5k WRs and ran 3:49 for the mile, yet was out of puff only weeks later at the European champs .

Subway Surfers Addiction wrote:

I'm guilty of associating Moorcroft with blood bags in the fridge. But by chance what was his second fastest 5,000m time?

Obviously, and steroids. History has shown us which drugs were used at which time, and that the top athletes have always cheated wherever possible. That's for example how the West could almost keep up with the East during the late 70s and throughout the 80s. "almost", because the East professionalized doping, and the West "only" encouraged it. 1:41 and 1:53 for Europeans, I am still laughing - no European came close to these times in the 90s, 00s, and 10s.

For example, over 99.5% of the East Germans got away with heavy steroid usage, proving how easy it was.

In the 90s, one had to hold back with the roids, but not with EPO. That proved to be advantageous for the long distances, but not the 800.

The 00s was a mixed bag. Formally there was an EPO test, but that was worthless until 05.

In the 10s, one has to pay a bit more attention to the EPO usage because of the ABP (e.g., Poistogova), or boldly go beyond its threshold and risk a warning (e.g. Radcliffe, Farah, Rupp, Jager, Savinova). In parallel however, new alternative drugs or developments (CERA, the Clear, HGH, the speed peptide,...) come along, so the cat and mouse game continues.

If all fails, just don't open the door. And if it's too late for that, you might get away with a bribe. Again, examples are abundant.

With about half of the athletes being cheats, and today's powerful PEDs, there probably wasn't any clean championship winner since the 60s.

Since I am at it, I am citing Dick Pound again from 2013:

"There is no general appetite to undertake the effort and expense of a successful effort to deliver doping-free sport."

"There's this psychological aspect about it: nobody wants to catch anybody. There's no incentive. Countries are embarrassed if their nationals are caught. And sports are embarrassed if someone from their sport is caught."

No it didn't - the Kenyan runners showed an ~5% improvement in a 3k TT, the same ~5% improvement those "slower" Scots showed in a 3k TT at sea-level. Both groups used the same dosing schedule of EPO, and the Kenyans had higher baseline Hcts than the Scots:

I didn't say ALL coaches or doping doctors. But many have the experience in the field of PEDs to have a pretty good grasp on what is efficacious and what isn't (who would have thought. Lol). On EPO it comes down to individual response, dose, duration of usage and training stimulus...nothing new there, and something I'm sure you already new. ? And EPO (and blood doping) can be combined with androgens for a synergistic effect. This study shows that anabolic steriods potentiates the effect of EPO:

And we've given you elite runners AT THE TOP who have tested positive for EPO or sanctioned for ABP anomalies!

? Mourhit with his sizzling 12:49/7:26!, Ramzi's 3:29 and double gold at Helsinki!, Brahim Boulami, who set two (2) world records in the steeplechase (the latter record overturned due to his EPO positive), and currently holds the 4th fastest time ever!? Ekupe's 2:05 just a few months before his EPO positive!, Ceplak's smoken 18th fastest all-time 800!, Liliya Shobukhova's O2-vector doped 2nd fastest marathon of all-time while running around with an astronomical 153 off-score!

We could start an all-time EPO-fueled top 10 performance list! ?

As it's already been suggested, go to athlete's IAAF profile and pull up their progression charts & graphs. Their improvement in times, some very significant in a short period of time, are all before their recorded EPO positives. And for those who return to competition after thier bans, just about all of them don't run times anywhere near their pre-banned performances.

Of course, from your standpoint it's all just a coincidence, and there's nothing to see there.

Que Sera Sera......

Hey man , you are telling a lot of good things, I dont understand why somebody attack you,

is like there s some kind of mafia in the system thats why is hard to go deep and scatter everything.

And arrest all people pushin their EPO around. And also people that use it. But you need serious investigation by special police. In a recent interview an Italian doctor Luigi Cecchini that was the coach of many top cyclists in the 80's 90's and 2000's , a great coach but also a doctor that worked

before with Conconi and Ferrari. The guy in the interview asked him what it could be the solution to doping , well Cecchini said that the best thing would be to invest money in a special investigative police forces with the hope to tracked down all the illegal traffic of Ped's. This the best solution

but of course it fight against corruption.

Let's say we want find all the peds traffic in place like Eldoret. In my opinion its not impossible but

sure is hard.

In Italy , Europe or Usa we started to "win" the battle against doping when we had the confessions

of many athletes , this is a very important step to fight doping. Think just Armstrong case, if not

for the confessions of his ex colleagues , maybe nothing had ever happened to him.

In athletics I dont see a real will to fight the doping problem. Too much corruption. Is a world that is

protective on his athlets. Lets put Russia down but not Jamaica , not Kenia . not Ethiopia etc. etc.

Rita Jeptoo and Sumgong they were so important for investigations but I can swear that they

could never collaborate or confess and tell the world what is the real picture of Kenia running.

They cant talk , would be a bad thing for their own people. This is the biggest problem.

The day that somebody will start to talk , maybe things will change in better.

To coach Renato Canova , I would like to tell this; Renato you are one of the greatest coach in the world. Nobody associate you to doping. I want to say that for example if one of your runners would be caught for doping. Is not your fault. You will be always a great coach . Doping has nothing to do

with the methodological aspect of training. Are two separate worlds!

I ve seen one of your interview when you was explain the fast long run 40k near Marathon pace that

you use to do with your marathoners . And when sometimes they found to hard to run almost a marathon few weeks before the Race. You use to remember them that in Italy we had Giorgio

Calcaterra(all time hero and legend ) that in 2000 run 16 Marathons between 2:13 and 2:20.

This is what traning is , to be an explorer , but I bet that Renato Canova had an intuition after seen

Calcaterra. If Calcaterra can run so many "fast" marathons in a year so why the best marathoners in the worlds cant run 40 k at 95% of race pace?? And this is totally different from the marathon training of the past and has made a great improvements in marathon times.

Aouita, Moorcroft, Maree, Rono, Ryffel, Leitao, Barrios and Mamede were the sub 13.10 guys prior to 1990.

Just one Kenyan.

Forgetting about Moorcroft for a moment, as it would be great if he was clean but we have no evidence of anything other than a very purple patch in the middle of 1982. But to test Rekrunner's hypothesis that westerners (for me this means white folks) did not improve during the EPO era over 5,000m, instead of focusing on Moorcroft's 13-flat, a far superior analysis would be to focus the 2nd, 3rd, 5th & 10th best times by westerners by the 1983-1987 period. My very lazy analysis (because world rankings by year don't rank by time and I'm not paying some online subscription) I found runners like Mamede running 13:08 (1983), Ryffel 13:07 (1984) and Cova & Mei did around 13:10-11. If we fast forward to the late 1990s, Baumann as we know, did 12:54 (1997), but Kennedy did 12:58 (1996), Mark Carroll ran 13:03 (1998) other people can point out other times here but we can see a clear 5-10s improvement in the EPO era over times done during a period of minimal testing for steroids (no OOC) and no ability to detect blood transfusions. This was really little more than 10 years.

Interestingly, outside of Mottram, white/westerners may to have slowed after the introduction of the first epo test in 2000 before Nike/Oregon linked runners (and True) began to shift the needle from 2010. From this mediocre analysis alone westerners likely did benefit from EPO.

Tania Tiger Karma Kitten wrote:

Really?

It is spelled diuretic (not diaretic).

A diuretic will increase fluid loss by increasing urine excretion, which can be used to speed up the clearance of a drug to try to avoid a positive doping test.

The fluid comes from the blood. The diuretic increases fluid loss from the blood to the urine, which decreases blood pressure by decreasing blood volume.

The decreased blood volume will decrease endurance performance and INCREASE the hemoconcentration of the blood, which

can cause an increased risk of adverse effects such as thrombosis, myocardial infarction, and cerebral infarction (stroke).

In conclusion:

1) Your brain is full of sh*t.

big boy v.2 wrote:

You are wrong again.

23 26:43.98 Lucas Rotich KEN 16.04.90 2 Bruxelles 16.09.2011

In conclusion:

1) Your brain is full of sh*t.

Don't walk down a dark alley, I know where you live.

mindweak wrote:

coe doped on roids

I keep seeing posts about distance runners getting caught with EPO or stimulants but not steroids.

How do you know steroids would help in a 1,500 meter race? It might actually decrease performance if you have extra, bulked-up muscle mass to carry around the track.

good_wiggler wrote:

I keep seeing posts about distance runners getting caught with EPO or stimulants but not steroids.

How do you know steroids would help in a 1,500 meter race? It might actually decrease performance if you have extra, bulked-up muscle mass to carry around the track.

Hey college kid; didn't you learn how to research in school? ?. If you know how to search anything, then go look up Wikipedia's list of doping cases for athletics and you'll find plenty of distance runners popped for steriods & T (wow...who would have thought). It's SMALL doses that aid in recovery, build strength & accelerate tissue repair from injuries...imagine that.

You college kids beat everything! No ability to research...just a bunch of trolls hijacking threads...nothing new there.

Too Many Trolls! wrote:It's SMALL doses that aid in recovery, build strength & accelerate tissue repair from injuries...imagine that.

This is simply gossip and rumor.

Someone posted an actual experiment of how EPO helps non-elite Kenyan athletes by 3%. But nobody, not even you, posted any scientific research showing that micro doses help with distance running. Steroids might help burn victims with healing, but you haven't shown anything about slow-twitch muscle fibers in elite athletes.

If only 1% to 2% of runners have been caught cheating, that doesn't mean then that 100% of athletes are cheating if you arbitrarily put a human limit of x minutes to an event.

You have to do a lot more to prove that there is some sort of conspiracy among Kipchoge and others. You can tell he works hard and is a down to earth guy, but you want to look at the 1% or 2% who are bad apples and then make a big leap and say 100% are cheaters.

Mr. Obvious wrote:

mindweak wrote:

well it appears that all my posts have been deleted....good job on whoever called it....reeekdumber is some how a mod or a troll handle for the brojos

Certain posters have always been protected by the mods here. It is a long running pattern.

Just like certain runners by the IAAF? ?

and on 4 other posts...nice.

yet somehow vent/calKunto is protected on this site like bolt and im getting the shaft like kara goucher