What if Kipchoge ran a marathon in racing flats or minimal shoes?

I thought that they would come up with something close to or the same as what you suggest? But if they are still using eva foam, then the technology hasn't advanced as much as it should after all these years....

Thanks, Doctor. Can you please share some of your scientific research to back that up?

Thanks Doc wrote:

Thanks, Doctor. Can you please share some of your scientific research to back that up?

well I guess.. wrote:

I thought that they would come up with something close to or the same as what you suggest? But if they are still using eva foam, then the technology hasn't advanced as much as it should after all these years....

Technology is not the problem. Ever heard of Skora? Or the Altra Escalante?

Really all you would need in a running shoe is a thin layer of rubber. Even some cushion is okay, but NOT as much as the Vaporfly, and DEFINITELY NOT a 10mm drop. The drop just interferes with their natural stride.

Rubber is too heavy. Ever felt the weight of latex? And it makes your feet sweat more. I have thought about a modified desing of insole material with rubber, but it's gonna have to be good. I have been saying this here since 2003, but when I tell shoe local shoe manufacturers they aint interested. To much investment in other types of shoes such as hill walking etc.

And what's so special about Skora? Or the Altra Escalante?

What was he running in before, Streaks? Do you think he would run in shoes that make him slower?

Shoes don't make that much of a difference anyway.

well I guess.. wrote:

Rubber is too heavy. Ever felt the weight of latex? And it makes your feet sweat more. I have thought about a modified desing of insole material with rubber, but it's gonna have to be good. I have been saying this here since 2003, but when I tell shoe local shoe manufacturers they aint interested. To much investment in other types of shoes such as hill walking etc.

And what's so special about Skora? Or the Altra Escalante?

How is a thin layer of rubber too heavy? Vibram has been making shoes that are exactly that and more that are nearly 4 oz. The V-Run, for example, is just over 4 oz and is 8.5 mm of stack.

The Escalante has TPU foam.

Skora uses an injection blown rubber instead of foam.

He won't last in minimal shoes because he trains mostly on dirt roads which he can't even train in minimalist because of all the rocks. He could do an Abebe Bikila and run laps around a smooth dirt road with some road but he doesn't so he can't.

igotatheory wrote:

There's too much cushion in those Vaporfly 4% shoes, and we all know that cushion makes you lose energy by having to push harder. I think that Kip could break the world record by running the marathon in shoes that have 15mm of stack MAX in the front, and no more than 4mm of drop. 4 oz or less. It's not like his feet won't handle it, his form and lower leg strength are probably better than nearly all other runners.

Support or criticize me.

The runners in the sub2 project tried more minimal shoes and hated it.

Faster for sure!!

Conditioning to wear these shoes and run like this would take some time though and I am sure there is a balance to be had!

Skip the road and go on a flat'ish dirt road or trail and it's even surer thing!!

They must have cushioning on the ball of the foot definitely for the dirt roads and to their hugh mileage, without it, with their speed and strong impacts they would have foot bones injuries. But what I don’t understand is why, as forefoot such strikers, they need thick cushioning at the heel?

Running shoe manufacturers have been invited numerous times to present their technology and how it improves performance, reduces impact on the body etc... by leading physiologists, medical panels etc...

They never ever turn up, basically because almost all of their science is flawed and is market driven. There is good reason why we suddenly went from flat shoes to 10-12mm drop shoes and it wasn't performance.

Modern running shoes like the Nike and Adidas lines impair the function of the arch, your foot's natural spring, they make the pelvis tip forward and they impair glute function.

Very few shoe companies are getting it right but if you shop around and avoid the shocking efforts from the mainstream moon buts made by the likes of Nike, Adidas, Brooks etc... you will find that the product offered by the likes of Salming, Altra, Asics Japan (not US), Merrell are far far far superior.

After suffering with piriformis and achilles issues for years and wearing 'traditional' shoes I am now injury free in my 40's, I wasn't in my 20's and 30's because I bought into the crap that was pedalled by these huge companies.

igotatheory wrote:

well I guess.. wrote:

I thought that they would come up with something close to or the same as what you suggest? But if they are still using eva foam, then the technology hasn't advanced as much as it should after all these years....

Technology is not the problem. Ever heard of Skora? Or the Altra Escalante?

Really all you would need in a running shoe is a thin layer of rubber. Even some cushion is okay, but NOT as much as the Vaporfly, and DEFINITELY NOT a 10mm drop. The drop just interferes with their natural stride.

Is that right, have they got a 10mm drop? If that is right then there is a significant amount of elastic recoil energy being lost through the Achilles due to it being prevented from being on higher degrees of stretch. This could easily add up to significant time over 26.2. We were given those 6 inch tendons for a reason.

“they make the pelvis tip forward and they impair glute function.”

Could you explain this please. How the shoe shape influences on whether you activate your glutes?

I live and work in South Korea, but don't buy my running shoes here. The last running shoe I bought here was 2010, the Nike Bowerman racing flat. I buy all of my running shoes in Japan now. I travel there 3 or 4 times a year. I prefer the Asics Sortie Magic, A very firm training/racing flat shoe. I have 4 pairs of them and 2 other Asics that I bought in Japan. I even have 2 Nike training shoes made for Japan only, much different than those in the U.S. Up until a few years ago most running shoes in Japan were low heeled and firm. Now, because of the running boom there, big bulky type shoes have entered the market. But the elite and sub elite market is big enough that Asics, Nike, MIzuno, and Adidas still make a lot of good elite and sub elite racing shoes for the Japan market.

well,. wrote:

igotatheory wrote:

There's too much cushion in those Vaporfly 4% shoes, and we all know that cushion makes you lose energy by having to push harder. I think that Kip could break the world record by running the marathon in shoes that have 15mm of stack MAX in the front, and no more than 4mm of drop. 4 oz or less. It's not like his feet won't handle it, his form and lower leg strength are probably better than nearly all other runners.

Support or criticize me.

The runners in the sub2 project tried more minimal shoes and hated it.

This.

If you paid attention to the sub2 stuff, they talked about it often and made videos about it. Nike was working on minimalist, even had a shoe with no heel, but the runners really wanted the cushion.

shoeby shoeby doo wop wrote:

well,. wrote:

The runners in the sub2 project tried more minimal shoes and hated it.

This.

If you paid attention to the sub2 stuff, they talked about it often and made videos about it. Nike was working on minimalist, even had a shoe with no heel, but the runners really wanted the cushion.

I get why they want the cushion, but I don't get why they would want that much cushioning on the heel. Could someone kindly explain?

Interesting. Can you link to a video?

shoeby shoeby doo wop wrote:

well,. wrote:

The runners in the sub2 project tried more minimal shoes and hated it.

This.

If you paid attention to the sub2 stuff, they talked about it often and made videos about it. Nike was working on minimalist, even had a shoe with no heel, but the runners really wanted the cushion.

Rayo. wrote:

Is that right, have they got a 10mm drop? If that is right then there is a significant amount of elastic recoil energy being lost through the Achilles due to it being prevented from being on higher degrees of stretch. This could easily add up to significant time over 26.2. We were given those 6 inch tendons for a reason.

And that reason wasn't running 26.2 miles on asphalt in 2 hours and change.