Training at goal pace?

Pros and others do many of their intervals or tempos not all out, but at goal race pace; building muscle memory is important.

I like what Brad Hudson does in his book. It's a progression over nearly two months.

12X400 @ GP w/ 2:00 rest

8X600 @ GP w/ 2:00 rest

6X800 @ GP w/ 2:00 rest

5X1000 @ GP w/ 2:00 rest

5X1000 @ GP w/ 1:30 rest

5X1000 @ GP w/ 1:00 rest

Personally, I like to repeat the 5X1000 w/ 1:00 rest three times over three weeks. Joe Vigil says it takes three weeks to fully adapt to a workout (G.A.S. or Gradual Adaptation to Stress).

Is this for 5K?

Coaching Thoughts wrote:

Is this for 5K?

I hope that 5x1k off 60s workout isn't for a 5k.

I would think that a workout being 8-10 x 1000 meters at threshold or tempo pace would be more beneficial to a 5k race than 5 x 1000 meters at goal pace.

Kind of what I was getting at with the goal pace or current race fitness question.

As a Daniels guy, I do the bulk of my work at current race pace, not goal pace; but there is room in the Daniels approach for doing work at goal pace. Daniels calls for vo2max work to be done somewhere between 3k and 5k pace, depending on the athlete. If you can range from actual 3k pace to actual 5k pace, you would be fine running vo2max intervals, at least, at goal 5k pace (assuming your goal is a reasonable one).

Is there something safer to use for a sharp peak instead of the traditional VO2 max 3k-5k paced workouts? Thinking there has to be a more safe way to peak athletes correctly without the wheels falling off.

First your threshold v. vo2max question. I just don't think it is an either/or question. A good training plan should address both lactate threshold and vo2max as both are limiting factors on running performance.

As to the sharp peak question, I am not sure that I am following. I think traditional vo2max intervals are a key to good performance at the longer track distances, so I don't see a good way of avoiding them if you want to optimize performance. But they don't need to be part of a peaking process. It takes about 4 weeks for vo2max detraining to take effect, and since threshold efforts can help do some vo2max maintenance, you really don't need to touch on 3k to 5k paced intervals in any significant way during the taper or championship phase of your season.

Most of my workouts during that period focus on one of two things: either (I) rep work (to feel light, fast, confident and to make race pace at a longer event feel more manageable) or (ii) race modeling. Depending on the distance of the goal race, that may mean that some work at vo2max pace is done during this period, but it is typically scaled back in overall volume and usually comes via shorter intervals like 800s instead of 1000s to 1600s. Often the rep work will be paired with threshold pace efforts.

So during my last 3 or 4 weeks of a cycle, I might have workouts that look like this:

- 2 x [4 x 400] at mile pace

- 3 x 200 at mile pace; 4-5 x 1200 at tempo pace; 3 x 200 at mile pace

- 3-4 x [200 at mile pace; 800 at 5k pace; 200 at mile pace] (this one can be taxing, so I do it at the tail end of the main phase or the early end of the taper phase

Thanks for the great reply. It just seems like (especially at the high school level) teams will begin to "detrain" because they are hitting hard VO2 intervals and racing all out for consecutive weeks. Most training plans by the "experts" don't seem to take in account how much high schoolers race a year.

I simply want my athletes to be as aerobically strong as possible for 5k. Which is why I have avoided a lot of goal paced efforts. Aside from hard strides twice a week.

On weeks when I race, I scale back to one workout per week, and I use the race as the other workout. What that one workout will be will depend on the race. So if you are having a kid run the 800 or 1600, you might ignore doing rep work that week and focus on a v02max intervals, particularly if the 800/1600 is an under-distance for that athlete, and particularly if the race is a relatively low key one. If it is a key race, you might go with a tempo workout that week. On the other hand, if the athlete is running the 3200 at a low key meet, you might want to do some rep work at mile pace as the one workout, or, if it is an important meet, you might focus on a tempo effort that week.

I was in college in the early 90s, when teams raced most weekends. I probably raced about 30 times per year. I still did 2 workouts in addition to racing back then most weeks; but I think that approach is frowned upon these days under the premise that we need more recovery time than that workload would afford. But it could still be the right balance for some athletes. If I were to go with two workouts the week of a low key race, I would do the harder session on a Monday, and a tempo session midweek (assuming a Saturday race).

Hayseed Coach wrote:

I like what Brad Hudson does in his book. It's a progression over nearly two months.

12X400 @ GP w/ 2:00 rest

8X600 @ GP w/ 2:00 rest

6X800 @ GP w/ 2:00 rest

5X1000 @ GP w/ 2:00 rest

5X1000 @ GP w/ 1:30 rest

5X1000 @ GP w/ 1:00 rest

Personally, I like to repeat the 5X1000 w/ 1:00 rest three times over three weeks. Joe Vigil says it takes three weeks to fully adapt to a workout (G.A.S. or Gradual Adaptation to Stress).

Instead of trying to force the length and the recovery time I let the length of the intervals stay the same.....instead the recovery is individual and gets shorter over time when the shape comes to the runner. A different approach that creates world class runners .....and of course the very best shape for every runner that goes into the system.

Magic fall

by COACH J.S :)

I agree with smoove that one quality workout in the week of a race is exactly the best. :)

Here's one way to train at goal pace.

Say the goal is a four minute mile.

(March) Early in the season do 4X400 in 59s w/ 60s rest. Easy enough.

(April) Then bring your fitness to where you run 2X800 in 1:58 w/ 2 min rest.

(May) Then next workout is 1000m in 2:27, r 2:30 and 500m in 1:13

(June) Then 1200m in 2:57, r 3:00 400m in 58.

None of these workouts will get you fitter, but they help better your rhythm and confidence.

Maybe do 4X200 in a faster pace after these workouts or even a short tempo run so you can use the day to develop fitness.

What about a threshold and tempo and race for a regular season weekly plan? You get two strength workouts and a faster effort (race).

I use tempo and threshold interchangeably, so I'm not sure I follow your question. Are you saying donthat twice in the same week and then race?

Yes. So tempo for an extended period of time one day....say 30 minutes. Then do threshold intervals at a faster pace with very minimal rest another day and then race on Saturday. Sound like an optimal schedule for 5k racing?

It would get you the bulk of your fitness gains, but it would not do much for running economy and racing 3200 or 5k every week on top of 2 LT sessions might take a physical toll.

But I think it does key on some of the most important components of 5k training - LT and vo2max.

Still, I'd go with races of different distances and a tempo/threshold/LT effort some weeks and either reps or vo2max other weeks (depending on what the race distance is each week).

But your suggested approach isn't all that unusual - basically you race your way into shape.

Thanks for all the insight. This has been a great thread and I've learned quite a bit.

Define goal pace. If I have a goal to set the world record in the marathon, yet I am a high school freshman, should I train at WR marathon pace?

Sounds ridiculous. But what if I only run 200m repeats at that pace with equal rest?

So here is my answer. YOu must train at a variety of paces. But I never like the term goal pace.

You should train at EZ pace, and Marathon pace (tempo), half marathon pace (threshold) and CV pace 10k, and 5k pace and 3k pace and mile pace and 800 pace and 400 pace and 200 pace and all out sprint.

Each of those paces have a certain volume and a certain rep length and a certain rest length.

YOu are what you are currently, you are not your GOAL. that is why I don't like it. I like training at a variety of paces of what I am currently as the guide for finding all of the other paces