Road Racing & Training Thread Week Ending 09/10/2017

Yes, it makes a lot of sense. So, what do you recommend for me? I am guessing 1,200s at VO2max? I know Daniels would recommend that earlier in the marathon cycle (and I am now only eight weeks out), but I did loads of long threshold intervals (of 1 to 4 miles per rep) later in my build-up last year, and, looking back on it, I am not sure of their effectiveness, at least for me. Did a load of work, and still did not break 3 at NYC. The work was pretty monotonous and grueling, too. I gather it wore out my mind and body. In any case, I know NYC is a tough course, as we have discussed here and elsewhere, but I still think I need to switch things up this time around. As you know, I have switched things up to a certain degree, and have seen good results over the past several months.

Right now, just getting to the line at Richmond would be a happy outcome.

All the best...

I would not over do the vo2max efforts at this point if I were you. I don't think that they are a bad idea, but they can be fairly taxing, especially if you are not used to them.

And for runners like us who are trying to run the best possible time and are not really responding to or throwing in surges as part of racing tactics, vo2max is really not much of a factor in the marathon. I think what they will do for you is make you feel like you are sharpening and ready to peak. Given that this is the benefit you would be seeking, I think you could get away with 800s just fine. They are almost long enough for you to get a vo2max bump any way, but they are short enough to not really push your already-tired-from-a-long-training-cycle body to its limits. For this reason, you could even do 400m intervals at 5k pace, with a 200m jog in between. No, I am not going all Coach JS on you here as I don't advocate them for boosting vo2max, but rather advocate them in this case as a way to find a nice crisp rhythm yet be left feeling fresh.

For what it is worth, I stop doing vo2max about 3 months before race day other than races. Definitely do not think that is the only approach that would work though, and I can see a good argument for dropping some in later in the cycle. Just don't over do it.

Gotcha! Nice consistency by the way. That was key for me when coming back from injury...right on!

GymTanLaundry wrote:

Laughlin wrote:

Also: GymTanLaundry - what are your training/racing goals? You seem rather mysterious :-)

About 3 months into a comeback attempt. Basically, trying to get in some consistent weekly mileage (35 - 45) without injury at this point.

Smoove wrote:

No, I am not going all Coach JS on you here ...

This is too good not to quote.

400s at tempo pace definitely seem a bit short. However, I believe you CAN run 16-20 x 400 at ~10k pace with 20-25 secs. rest and train the same system that a traditional tempo run (as most people think of it) does. For someone like you and I, outsiderunner, I would stick to 16ish rather than 20 x 400.

I am sure it would have a LT adaptation effect, but I also suspect it's a fairly inefficient way to get that effect.

Good to hear, BirdWatcher. That's quite a bit of quality with flats, cushioning notwithstanding. I can't think of a better premise: running hard and ice cold beer.

Looking forward to hearing how it goes.

Laughlin wrote:

Gotcha! Nice consistency by the way. That was key for me when coming back from injury...right on!

GymTanLaundry wrote:

About 3 months into a comeback attempt. Basically, trying to get in some consistent weekly mileage (35 - 45) without injury at this point.

Thank you!

Smoove - how do you mean? Wouldn't the lactate still be used as a fuel (as long as its production isn't too much)? Admittedly, it is towards the upper limit of the speeds that improve LT.

Well, I just did a 5 K solo effort on the track. It was a warmish humid morning at 70 degrees and near hundred percent humidity. Anyway, all went well-I wanted to gauge my fitness and also have the psychological satisfaction of going under 20 min. Did negative splits with last lap at 89.2 which felt good. Other solo efforts in the past on much less mileage have had me going out hard, dying off, and struggling to finish under 21. So all in all, today was a success as I could finish strong. It also provides a useful data point for determining paces for tempo runs which should be in the 645 range I reckon.

Sorry, forgot to mention the overall time-19:53, which is 624 pace or so. I will take it, considering I did my first 20 miler Sunday. That said, my legs felt great and fresh somehow. So for tempo runs, is 645 or so what I should be hitting? Last weeks 6 miler was at just a hair under 7 pace which felt fine, not too hard. Any thoughts on this pace as well as what I should target for an overall marathon pace? One other data point- I did a 132 half three years ago on about 30 miles a week max.

Bird-killing it! Nothing like an ice cold beer or 5 after a run.

I am going back to more miles and no speedwork on track etc. it is just what I enjoy the most and it keeps me sane. With another big base period think I will def drop a lot of time off my races in the spring as I took a lot of time off last winter doing bigger miles. I figure my demons do about 60mpw so I gotta get some distance in between us.

Hey guys any thoughts on a some good workouts for me. I'm 4 weeks out from my goal half marathon and my legs are feeling great so I want to beat them up a little more the next 2 weeks or so. So far I did a 2x3 around current hm pace yesterday so I'd like to get in a semi intense run tomorrow. Plan on doing 16 on Sunday which will top me off at 51 for the week. I read on another thread about doing 20x200m with shorter rest after each set of 5 which I'd love to do but not sure if it's the right workout at the right time for me now. Thanks!

My focus is less on lactate as an energy source and more on the challenges associated with the build up of waste products associated with lactate (hydrogen ions, I believe). This area of discussion gets confusing because people like me still use lactate and lactic acid interchangeably and as a short hand for those waste products.

The presence of those waste products (I will go back to calling them lactic acid for convenience, even if it perpetuates the confusion) is a signal to your brain that your body needs to slow down. So the goal of LT adaptation for distance runners is to reduce the build up of lactic acid in your cells so that your body does not signal your brain that it needs a break. To achieve this, you train at levels that allow for the slow build up of lactic acid so that your body learn to clear it more quickly and can adapt to its presence, all in an effort to keep that signal from being sent.

Given that emphasis, I worry less about going too fast, and more about how long the work bouts will be, how long the rest periods between work bouts will be, and what will be happening during those rest periods.

- The shorter the work bouts, the less time you have to accumulate any meaningful amount of lactic acid.

-That can be overcome some by having even shorter rest periods, of course, but lactic acid clears pretty quickly, so even short rest periods result in some clearance. (And while we want our bodies to learn to clear lactic acid, we want that to happen while running at pace, not while resting. Our bodies are already good at doing it while resting, and clearance while resting is not a limiting factor on performance.)

-That rate of clearance increases dramatically with light jogging, so I tend to prefer relatively limited amounts of activity during the rest periods, particularly with shorter rest periods since they usually accompany the shorter work periods in which very little lactic acid accumulates in the first place.

For some of this - like active v. passive recovery, especially after moderately long work bouts - it is a matter of trying to gain tiny bits of efficiency; but for other parts of this - like the duration of the work bouts and the relative amounts of rest - it can be a matter of whether or not you get any appreciable adaptation to the build up of waste products associated with the production of energy using lactate as a fuel source.

Take all of that with a grain of salt. I am a transaction lawyer, not a physiologist, so I may not have some of that quite right; but that is my understanding of things based on my read as an interested athlete of various sources over time.

Now I'm thinking of doing a 9 mile progression run

I like progressions.. you can kind of "relax" into the threshold pace.

MArtalus - Nice 5k TT

Smoove - Good luck with the 5k next week

slo-twitch - Keep it up. Rocking that 35k

Chunky Vanilla - Nice week of volume plus 20k @ MP!!

Laughlin - Just trying to maintain some of the 3k-800 pace stuff with that little fartlek, Good week for you

Runningforfun - Consistent week and good 8x800

CField - Welcome to the thread

OR - Sorry to hear about your job situation. Hope things turn around.

thejeff - Congrats on the nice 10k.

hantph96 - Hope the calf stays friendly too you. For squats, etc I try to go at ~70% effort where its heavy but I can still put some aggression/acceleration into the bar and it feels athletic.

Runn3rgirl - I like the sprint the straights, jog the curves. Keep it up.

Workingharder - Enjoy the taper for your 100, you've earned it

team 1 - Good luck with your 10k. I'm racing a couple of 5ks over the next two months. Turkey trots are pretty much the end of road races up here until the spring so that's when my 5k block ends and I start focusing on an indoor track meet in January

GymTanLaundry - Consistent week

HarrierStu - That tempo on a dirt trail sounds nice, Just use the time you would have spent watching football running, haha

BirdWatcher - Congrats on the speedy 5k and I like the impromptu hill workout.

HHH Runner - Good luck with the half. How much do races cost in London? I think I would go broke racing every week.

Sorry guys, we had an unexpected guest last weekend, ie Irma.

Lost power and probably won't get it for a while so decided to get a hotel room for the fam.

Haven't run anything all week, which is probably good for my foot, but I'm still having some odd foot pain here and there. It seems like Active Rest works better for me.

Smoove- hopefully you also fared ok during the storm

RRR- nice race, sorry I haven't opened up Strava as I haven't needed to

OR- sorry about the job situation. what do you do and where do you live? I work for a large Architectural and Engineering firm and we probably have an opening in one of the several hundred offices we have scattered throughout the world.

email my "public email":

marshallpre1@hotmail.com

if you'd like.

Jeremy

Jeremy, we did okay. I lost part of my fence and my pool pump took on some damage, but if the pool pump isn't too bad, I should make it out with less than $1000 in damage if you don't count the lost landscaping (which I won't replace) and the hours of manual labor. I was only without power for about 36 hours. I was very fortunate.

One bit of good did come out of this - I got to know some of my neighbors a little better. In fact, I think I am going to grill and have an open house on my porch or driveway this weekend to try to reinforce the connections. If you and the family can make it down here, you should come get a hot, home cooked meal.